Thoughts on the news from the Vatican

[MWDabbs]

Everyone knew how I think to begin with.      So, we now abide by what you consider rules of evidence and court procedure?   

Just as a point of reference, Jesus as divine son of god is not necessarily a matter of faith, but quite possible one of dogma - established by the First Council of Nicea, per the interests of Emperor Constantine, and generally leading to the violent eradication of every Gnostic sect in the Mediterranean.

We can generally infer from the Old Testament that those recording it were imminently concerned with Bloodlines, and one in particular - the Davidic Line.  It even starts out that way, Adam and Eve have two sons, one kills the other and then all the sudden goes out to find a wife to form cities - skipping over things like villages and towns, or where his wife was found.   But all that leads to Noah, the Nephilim, Solomon, David and so on.  These are still issues of considerable and relevant speculation for at least some of us.

The simple issue is that IF Jesus was the Divine Son of God and he had offspring -- that throws a few wrenches into the entire issue of Apostelic Succession.   The simple notion that he was of the Line of David itself has implications not favorable to the Roman Church.  Whether you are willing to entertain that possibility or not, is entirely irrelevant  - there are several on this board who find significant interest in this subject and the numerous extensions of it.   The issue of "offspring" while not directly related to my line of inquiry may have bearing upon the "end game" of the Roman Church - pertinent by virtue of the Malachi Prophecies.

But, the questions here are not debating these issues... as for all those who DO believe in the Bible, there are things like Omens, Plagues, Curses, Demons, Signs and Seals, Trumpets and Archangels and things like that.  Now I'm pretty sure that these go way over the top of any conventional courtroom rules of evidence you may be accustomed to.   

Now, I very much do believe these types of things, not necessarily from a Christian or Catholic perspective.  And there'll be those who presume I'm a nut -- but, scientifically speaking for all of our adult lives -- "life has been predicated on the existence of water".  Of course, one would have to be a full-blown psychotic lunatic on crack to believe there's water on the Moon... or Mercury.   And then, one would have to on psychedelic shrooms to believe that there could possibly be such thing as an "buttock nic-based life form". 

And there are those who will say, "Pictures or it didn't happen" - so 20th Century, as we are now quite capable of invisibility, just per the technology already made known to the public.  So... if our measure of technology of what can and cannot be done is based upon a 100, 50 or even 10 year time frame... we might be able to get a glimpse of how narrow-sighted we really are. 

Plenty of other things, suffice that in a discussion concerning the Pope -- it is not too freakin' far afield, not a carnival as you may seem to think, to be discussing things like omens, signs, miracles and things like that, as these have been accredited recently to John Paul II.   

So, I've got no argument with you.... and won't be responding further to this line of discussion and if you want the closing argument, fine... be my freakin' guest.   For now, a lot of eyes are on the events of March.   Nevertheless... I stand by my initial questions, and Fionnan believes everything was completely normal, nothing strange at all, move along.... 

[lordtiberius]

I miss Pope John Paul II.  I saw him once when I was a boy when he visited Phoenix.  I like the current Pope as well.  He demonstrated a lot of courage and an agile mind.  He understood the challenges of the church and he began the great work we Catholics must complete in the 21st century.  God Bless Him and God Bless The New Pope!

[P-N]

Just as a point of reference, Jesus as divine son of god is not necessarily a matter of faith, but quite possible one of dogma - established by the First Council of Nicea, per the interests of Emperor Constantine, and generally leading to the violent eradication of every Gnostic sect in the Mediterranean.

We can generally infer from the Old Testament that those recording it were imminently concerned with Bloodlines, and one in particular - the Davidic Line.  It even starts out that way, Adam and Eve have two sons, one kills the other and then all the sudden goes out to find a wife to form cities - skipping over things like villages and towns, or where his wife was found.   But all that leads to Noah, the Nephilim, Solomon, David and so on.  These are still issues of considerable and relevant speculation for at least some of us.

The simple issue is that IF Jesus was the Divine Son of God and he had offspring -- that throws a few wrenches into the entire issue of Apostelic Succession.   The simple notion that he was of the Line of David itself has implications not favorable to the Roman Church. 

All issues that have been subject to intense debate and discussion in the highest theological and intellectual arenas to be fair.....many times over I would add.

[kyivkpic]

@lordtiberius- I'll agree that Pope John Paul II seemed like genuinely decent human being. I never did agree much with the anti-contraceptive policy but I never held any distaste for him.  My thought was always he was just a kind intellectual( a fine one but perhaps with an Ivory Tower syndrome) and that he was just propped up as a good face.

The latest pope came in with scandals, is leaving with scandals, and came across as more than a little creepy. The Church has some serious financial issues and populations are rising and the number of priests has gone down continuously since the 1970's. Around 2003, the two Catholic churches in my county (out of a couple hundred other churches) had only 1 priest for 2 parishes of 300 each. The Church won't survive unless it allows priests to marry. The celibacy is a respectable kind of yoga exercise but I think if they really took the words of Jesus serious, "If your eye causes you to sin, gouge it out", then they'd go ahead and cut 'em off. I'd certainly respect their integrity.

The Catholic Church is also losing from a marketing angle. The respectable intellectualism and asceticism of Catholicism isn't appealing to the fat, dumb and happy masses. The majority of Protestant Churches are shameless in their corporate relationships and PR techniques with the false hopes, propaganda preachings, anti-intellectualism, and rabble rousing. It a wonderful way of getting the sheep to oppress themselves. It's quite intimidating to speak up about the nefarious relationship of mass media and religion and patriotism and war to a group of people that state their willingness to fight and die for their flag and bible and think the answer to the question, "WWJD?" is to have plenty of guns and ammo, and to be passive about corruption and lawlessness by the elite, because it all just portends the pernicious lie of a returning savior in the sky myth. It's quite debilitating and effective at making the sheep indifferent to their economic and social realities.

@fionnain - I'm not trying to attack Christian virtues or beliefs, but only what I perceive them to have been perverted into and used as. The difference between us is that while I agree that the character and teachings of Jesus are worthy of study and emulation, and reverence for him is a respectable form of bhakti yoga, I don't buy the propitiation of sin and the resurrection. I think they're pernicious lies used by the elite for centuries to retard human minds and exploit people. I will never tell a story or show an image or sculpture of a brutally tortured and executed man and tell my daughter that she is guilty for his death because she was born with sin, and fallen from grace, not unless I want her to be neurotic and subservient.

I don't really want to spark an argument or be mean spirited. I just feel the need give my perspective of the Catholic Church and my religious views as it's acceptable to evangelize here on the forum.

P-N is right. Debating about religion is a worthless venture. There are many great minds that have delved into these questions and their dialogues and discourses are all publicly available. To me, the language is mostly unintelligible and in pursuit of the in-determinable, however.   

I much more interested in trans-humanism and cybernetics and artificial intelligence and space travel than in old mythological stories.

[lordtiberius]

kyivkpic,  Thank you for your thoughtful response.  You spoke the truth and I found some things I could not agree with.

P-N is right. Debating about religion is a worthless venture.

If we do not discuss the things that are important, then what kind of people are we?

@lordtiberius- I'll agree that Pope John Paul II seemed like genuinely decent human being.

He was more than a  genuinely decent human being.  You and I are genuinely decent human beings.  He was something more.  He was something more because of his work and his faith.  He is an example of how Christ would have lived in his times and therefore is an example of how we should live in your times.  You mentioned in you country that life is tough.  Life is pretty bad over here and the example that Pope John Paul II provided in his papacy but in particularly in enduring the Nazis and the Soviets serve to guide me in deal with the petty tyrants in my country.

I never did agree much with the anti-contraceptive policy

Do you deny that contraceptives

1) diminish the value of women
2) encourage wide spread immorality
3) encourage the perversion of science
4) encourage governments to sterilize their populations?

The latest pope came in with scandals, is leaving with scandals, and came across as more than a little creepy. The Church has some serious financial issues and populations are rising and the number of priests has gone down continuously since the 1970's.

Leaders are sent to solve problems.  But let's be fair, he did not create these problems.  These problems are the result of decades of cultural decay.  And it is the church's responsibility to stand against the social ills that cultures blind themselves too.  He did that.  God does not judge us by whether or not we succeed or fail but if we showed up and gave it out best.  By those standards, he is fine.

Around 2003, the two Catholic churches in my county (out of a couple hundred other churches) had only 1 priest for 2 parishes of 300 each. The Church won't survive unless it allows priests to marry. The celibacy is a respectable kind of yoga exercise but I think if they really took the words of Jesus serious, "If your eye causes you to sin, gouge it out", then they'd go ahead and cut 'em off. I'd certainly respect their integrity.

The reason why Pope Gregory enacted sacerdotal celibacy is to prevent issues of children from inheriting church property.  By lifting the church teaching, not church doctrine, you risk introducing a problem solved a thousand years ago.

The Catholic Church is also losing from a marketing angle. The respectable intellectualism and asceticism of Catholicism isn't appealing to the fat, dumb and happy masses. The majority of Protestant Churches are shameless in their corporate relationships and PR techniques with the false hopes, propaganda preachings, anti-intellectualism, and rabble rousing. It a wonderful way of getting the sheep to oppress themselves. It's quite intimidating to speak up about the nefarious relationship of mass media and religion and patriotism and war to a group of people that state their willingness to fight and die for their flag and bible and think the answer to the question, "WWJD?" is to have plenty of guns and ammo, and to be passive about corruption and lawlessness by the elite, because it all just portends the pernicious lie of a returning savior in the sky myth. It's quite debilitating and effective at making the sheep indifferent to their economic and social realities.

You critique of American Protestantism is quite cogent and true.  But how do you respond to lies - even well marketed super clean lies - but with the truth.  The plain ugly truth is better than the beautiful lie.  All men of good sense know that. 
 

I much more interested in trans-humanism and cybernetics and artificial intelligence and space travel than in old mythological stories.

I would rather eat cake than exercise.  I would hardly call Christ's death and resurrection "old mythological stories" but a living reality that happens every day, every moment your are alive and every moment you die because God is infinite and if there is a God worth worshipping wouldn't his name be Love?

[lordtiberius]

It is also important to note the role of 19th century Slavic literature had on turning the events of the 20th century

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Juliusz_Słowacki

Juliusz Slowacki (1809 - 1849)

Translation: Copyright by The Dominican Nuns of Summit, New Jersey, 1980


Amid discord the Lord God strikes
An immense bell,
Behold, for a Slavic pope
He opens a throne.
This one does not flee before swords
Like that Italian.
He is daring, like God, he goes to the sword:
The world to him is powder!

His face is radiant with the Word,
A lamp for the servant,
Because of him the advancing race goes
Into the light, where God is.
At his prayers and commands
Not only men-
If he commands, the sun stops,
For power-this is a wonder!

Now he draws near-the new dispenser
Of vigor to the globe:
The blood of our veins goes back into our veins
Under his word;
In our hearts the movement begins of floods
Of divine light,
What thought thinks through him, this is created,
For power-this is Spirit.

And power is needed, that we may raise
This lordly world:
Thus here comes a Slavic pope,
A brother of the people;-
Behold, he already pours the world's balm
On our breasts
And the angel-choir sweeps flowers
Toward his throne.

He distributes love, as lords today
Distribute arms.
He displays sacramental power,
The world held in his palm;
To him a dove wings words in hymns,
Bears a report,
Sweet news, that now the Spirit shines
And has His honor;
Above him the beautiful sky is opened
From either side,
For his is grounded in the world and thus are renewed
Both world and throne.

Across nations he acts as brother,
The voice sent forth,
That spirits come to their final end
Through mounds of sacrifices;
Sacramental power avails him for the care
Of the nations,
Power which will be seen through the Spirit
Before the coffin here.

In Spirit thus you soon perceive
A phantom, then a face:
From the world's wound he casts out all corruption,
Vermin, reptiles.
He brings health, enkindles love
And saves the world;
He sweeps out the interior of the Churches,
Clears out the entrance,
He shows forth God in the world of creativity,
Bright as day.
http://stoper.blox.pl/2011/01/JULIUSZ-SLOWACKI-SLOWIANSKI-PAPIEZ.html

This current of Polish Romanticism reflects a spirituality that rejects the atheism of the "Enlightenment." 

[Fraucha]

Short Atlantic Wire Story about some of the reasons for the step down....

http://news.yahoo.com/popes-secrets-beginning-leak-225318302.html

[kyivkpic]

Who knows?... perhaps a giant rock will fall from the sky....

Brethren, please notice my prophecy on Thursday and the meteorite strike in Russia on Friday.

Heed my words.

[fionnain]

Who knows?... perhaps a giant rock will fall from the sky....

Brethren, please notice my prophecy on Thursday and the meteorite strike in Russia on Friday.

Heed my words.

Oh kyivkpic the Magnificent!!  Are sure that was prophecy, or mere speculation?   

If you are really that good, please tell us who the next Pope will be?  They are taking bets in New York and I would like to make some easy money before returning to Poltava next week.   

[kyivkpic]

Of course it wasn't prophecy but I'm not sure it was just speculation.

There's interesting research on this kind of thing at the Institute of Noetic Sciences, which was founded by Edgar Mitchell, the sixth man on the Moon. http://noetic.org/

Rupert Sheldrake also does research on these kind of coincidences. http://www.sheldrake.org/homepage.html

I have no idea who the next Pope will be....I'm not even sure who the leading contenders are.

[fionnain]

Everyone knew how I think to begin with.      So, we now abide by what you consider rules of evidence and court procedure?   

Just as a point of reference, Jesus as divine son of god is not necessarily a matter of faith, but quite possible one of dogma - established by the First Council of Nicea, per the interests of Emperor Constantine, and generally leading to the violent eradication of every Gnostic sect in the Mediterranean.

We can generally infer from the Old Testament that those recording it were imminently concerned with Bloodlines, and one in particular - the Davidic Line.  It even starts out that way, Adam and Eve have two sons, one kills the other and then all the sudden goes out to find a wife to form cities - skipping over things like villages and towns, or where his wife was found.   But all that leads to Noah, the Nephilim, Solomon, David and so on.  These are still issues of considerable and relevant speculation for at least some of us.

The simple issue is that IF Jesus was the Divine Son of God and he had offspring -- that throws a few wrenches into the entire issue of Apostelic Succession.   The simple notion that he was of the Line of David itself has implications not favorable to the Roman Church.  Whether you are willing to entertain that possibility or not, is entirely irrelevant  - there are several on this board who find significant interest in this subject and the numerous extensions of it.   The issue of "offspring" while not directly related to my line of inquiry may have bearing upon the "end game" of the Roman Church - pertinent by virtue of the Malachi Prophecies.

But, the questions here are not debating these issues... as for all those who DO believe in the Bible, there are things like Omens, Plagues, Curses, Demons, Signs and Seals, Trumpets and Archangels and things like that.  Now I'm pretty sure that these go way over the top of any conventional courtroom rules of evidence you may be accustomed to.   

Now, I very much do believe these types of things, not necessarily from a Christian or Catholic perspective.  And there'll be those who presume I'm a nut -- but, scientifically speaking for all of our adult lives -- "life has been predicated on the existence of water".  Of course, one would have to be a full-blown psychotic lunatic on crack to believe there's water on the Moon... or Mercury.   And then, one would have to on psychedelic shrooms to believe that there could possibly be such thing as an "buttock nic-based life form". 

And there are those who will say, "Pictures or it didn't happen" - so 20th Century, as we are now quite capable of invisibility, just per the technology already made known to the public.  So... if our measure of technology of what can and cannot be done is based upon a 100, 50 or even 10 year time frame... we might be able to get a glimpse of how narrow-sighted we really are. 

Plenty of other things, suffice that in a discussion concerning the Pope -- it is not too freakin' far afield, not a carnival as you may seem to think, to be discussing things like omens, signs, miracles and things like that, as these have been accredited recently to John Paul II.   

So, I've got no argument with you.... and won't be responding further to this line of discussion and if you want the closing argument, fine... be my freakin' guest.   For now, a lot of eyes are on the events of March.   Nevertheless... I stand by my initial questions, and Fionnan believes everything was completely normal, nothing strange at all, move along....

No one is asking you to abide by the rules of evidence and rules of court in discussing this topic.  Matters of faith are just that, matters of faith.  Man made laws and made made Councils have no bearing on the words of Christ and His apostles like Saul of Tarsus, better known as Paul.  Man will always misinterpret and/or corrupt the words of God and create man made legalisms, but they have no effect on the true words of God.  Councils and man made legalisms are mere distractions of which Jesus warned us about in the Book of Revelations.  It is best to take little stock in them.

Believers do believe that Jesus is the Son of God and that He is divine.  They also believe that Jesus had no wife and had no children.  So, for the follower/believer in Christ, there are no implications as to apostolic succession.  The Bible does not speak of or to any large church or popes, cardinals, or bishops.  They are all man made institutions and have no bibical reference. 

Being Catholic or any other denomination is not referenced in the Bible.  According to Christ, the church was simply a gathering of two of more people in His name.  I am neither for nor against organized churches that claim some form or Christianity.  But, as churches grow in size and scope, human sinfulness will appear and corruption will follow.  This is a product of flawed human beings and that is why Christ took all of these sins upon himself so that all men can be forgiven and redeemed.  We are not to judge others lest we be judged ourselves.  To say, as some here have said, that we are supposed to live with the guilt of the death of Jesus is completely off the mark.  The purpose of the death and resurrection was to completely and forever relieve us of all guilt and all sins.  Catholic and/or Chrisitan guilt is a bunch of pure unadulterated hogwash.   

There are mentions of demons and omens in the old testament, but the words of Christ relieved us of the law of Moses and now we live under grace if we so choose.  The rules of evidence have nothing to do with faith and they must be separated from each other.  The man made laws of man do not trump the grace from God.  Faith requires no rules of evidence or rules of court.  Faith will save you for we do not live for this world, but the promise of a better world in the Kingdom of heaven. 

We can surely discuss signs and miracles and things of that nature, but my point was that we are too quick to look for sinister signs and hidden stories when it is just as possible and more plausible that something normal is happening.  If we simply accept something that is rare or infrequent as normal, then there is no story and no theatre.  We seem to thrive on gossip, mystery and controversy.  Something normal is simply not exciting enough to gain our limted and lustful span of attention.  Too many people do not heed the words of warning found in Revelations 22:18-19.  It is better to accept the word of God and Christ than to endlessly speculate and hunt for witches that may or may not exist. 

I have no argument with you and I greatly appreciate the discussion and debate.  This has been a good thread!!  We shall soon see what March brings. 

[MWDabbs]

http://vaticaninsider.lastampa.it/en/the-vatican/detail/articolo/benedetto-xvi-benedict-xvi-benedicto-xvi-22414/

Of course, I could be reading too much into this.  50-50... but noteworthy enough to at least remember this speech. 

[Claus]

Speaking as an agnostic lutheran 
Who cares about popes?

[fionnain]

Speaking as an agnostic lutheran 
Who cares about popes?

I thought you were trying to remove reilgion from this thead? 

[Claus]

You got it wrong, fionnain 

I want to remove religion from this homepage!