Thoughts on the news from the Vatican

[MWDabbs]

I'm not a big fan of religion, but if religion was to be replaced by "something" what would it be?  What has it been?  Usually the state. 

Where religious discrimination is not very acceptable these days; political discrimination is... shall we say, "Actively Encouraged"? 

We know where that leads. 

[P-N]

I'm not a big fan of religion, but if religion was to be replaced by "something" what would it be?  What has it been?  Usually the state. 

Where religious discrimination is not very acceptable these days; political discrimination is... shall we say, "Actively Encouraged"? 

We know where that leads.

Now that is an interesting thing about the Old Testament if you relegate the "God" issue to a secondary position.

Looking at the text through an ungodly lens, it is a book that is full of struggles via a compilation of different authors about how to construct a society rather than a State - constructing a State was left to the Greek philosophers such as Plato it would appear 

Starting with the basics and the covenants of Abraham and Moses, one proposes a society based upon friendship and kinship whilst the other proposes a society based upon obligation.  There is also 3 different legal codes written by different authors in Exodus, Deuteronomy and Leviticus.

Then there is the apparent disagreement between authors over the role of King David (and the Davidic line) via some kind of divine ordination whilst in Samuel, that divine ordination is thoroughly rejected.  Likewise there are two lines of thought over the priests - one a hierarchical elite and another a common call to the Kingdom of Priests (Israel).

In short there is plenty of moral dogma - often at odds with itself - but no political theories of how the State should evolve or be run.

None of the writers seem to be fans of the city life.  The first city and the first murderer (Cain) go hand in hand.  Babel and Sodom do not get rave reviews and as such, as some form of obscure political statement, it appears that city life perverts man to hunger for power, riches et al, whilst community and village life is somehow free from such temptations - at least that is what the numerous authors suggest on balance from the writing.

An early written inference that centralised power is going to corrupt perhaps?  That said, Saul is made King by the society and thus the "State" is necessarily born despite the misgivings listed throughout the Old Testament.   

[fionnain]

You got it wrong, fionnain 

I want to remove religion from this homepage! 

A mere technicality Claus!! 

[P-N]

You got it wrong, fionnain 

I want to remove religion from this homepage! 

You do have a valid point Claus.  This forum is international and the recent very noticeable move towards religion and all matters Biblical may (or may not) appear somewhat off-putting to Indian, Turkish, Chinese (and other) readers and potential members.  (I simply mention those nations as they are the ones that are taking a far greater interest in investment and entrepreneurship in Ukraine than most according to those who sit in the Ukrainian officialdom.)

Something to consider a little more seriously perhaps.

[fionnain]

First we had "Separation of Church and State."  (See US Constitution; 1st Amendment)

Now we have a proposal of Separation of Chuch and Ex Pat Forum!!  (See Claus & P-N)

Let freedom ring!!! 

[Glyn Thomas.]

I have stayed quiet recently but merely observed ... Generally I see trends in the forum that latch onto visas, marriage.. Cars ... Etc and generally they all relate to ukraine. Sometimes we get a quirk.. A month of bitching about Obama this or Obama that and i am tolerant.

I have no doubt the religious themes will soon fade.

If they don't then I will start to intervene because generally I want the forum to be tolerant, inclusive and not push any dogma or rhetoric that may offend others.

This is an expat forum that is aimed at expats in Ukraine.

All of you are non-paying guests and I will always do what is best to keep the spirit .. Excuse the pun.. Relevant to life here in Ukraine.

Play nicely.

Ace123
Owner

[P-N]

First we had "Separation of Church and State."  (See US Constitution; 1st Amendment)

Now we have a proposal of Separation of Chuch and Ex Pat Forum!!  (See Claus & P-N)

Let freedom ring!!! 

Firstly, I did not fall on either side of the secular line you draw in what I wrote.  "Perhaps" and "consideration" are hardly words that form a definite opinion or outcome - unless you have a radically different definition of them to most.

Secondly, it is important to remember what this forum was created for many years ago and the interests of those it serves - the readers who are visiting and its members, about to move to, or who are already living in Ukraine and how to deal with the bureaucracy, social normative, corruption, expectations and disappointments. 

The latter was the most persuasive argument to remain a member of this forum for all the years I have.

That being the case, is it not right to ponder and consider reasonably, the recent and noticeable change in forum content and the impression it will give to potential members who are either atheist, agnostic or non-Christian?  A home page full of Biblical quotations I suspect will be off-putting to some and thus some will possibly lose out of the quite considerable experience of being a foreigner in Ukraine acquired by the forum over the years.

[kyivkpic]

?People who want to share their religious views with you almost never want you to share yours with them.?

Dave Barry

[fionnain]

First we had "Separation of Church and State."  (See US Constitution; 1st Amendment)

Now we have a proposal of Separation of Chuch and Ex Pat Forum!!  (See Claus & P-N)

Let freedom ring!!! 

Firstly, I did not fall on either side of the secular line you draw in what I wrote.  "Perhaps" and "consideration" are hardly words that form a definite opinion or outcome - unless you have a radically different definition of them to most.

Secondly, it is important to remember what this forum was created for many years ago and the interests of those it serves - the readers who are visiting and its members, about to move to, or who are already living in Ukraine and how to deal with the bureaucracy, social normative, corruption, expectations and disappointments. 

The latter was the most persuasive argument to remain a member of this forum for all the years I have.

That being the case, is it not right to ponder and consider reasonably, the recent and noticeable change in forum content and the impression it will give to potential members who are either atheist, agnostic or non-Christian?  A home page full of Biblical quotations I suspect will be off-putting to some and thus some will possibly lose out of the quite considerable experience of being a foreigner in Ukraine acquired by the forum over the years.

Isn't it ironic that we are quick to come to the defence of the atheist, agnostic, or non-christian, but when members were bashing Christian missionaries for weeks and me personally as a Christian, not a peep from anyone to defend Christians or me as a Christian. 

Is there a double standard here?  Ok to bash Christians, but Lord help the man that might in some slight way offend the Atheist by simply professing his faith. 

Free speech was soley intended to protect speech that another man finds offensive.  We either have free speech or we do not.  If you are going to tolerate the Chirstian Missionary bashers that have done a fair job of ad hominem Christian bashing, then you must then at least tolerate the Christian that quotes a Bible verse or two from time to time.

Sorry if the word of God offended you, but I am sure that you were also offended by the slurs, obscene language and other unseemly comments made by others here, but perhaps you were not? 

You are worried that Bible quotations might put some off, but you are not worried about the anti-missionary diatribes that ranted on and on for weeks? 

Hey, you have got to be kidding me!!! 

Perhaps you can attract more atheists and agnostics by telling them that missionaries are not welcome in Ukraine (according to some memebers here) and that making vile and disgusting ad hominem attacks on Christians (As already done here many times) are welcome.  This way you can attract all the atheists you can find. 

Soon, you can have a weekly feature where you can show the Muslims in Sudan murdering the Coptic Christians and then the next week you can feature the ruling Muslim Brotherhood burning Coptic Christian Churches in Egypt.  I am sure that the Atheists, agnostics and non Christians will flock to this site then.   

[P-N]

Oh dear - you are missing the point both the owner of this website has made, and the issue to ponder I have raised almost simultaneously as per time line above - I presume deliberately.

I will defer to the owner as it is his website, his rules and his commercial interest.  Suffice to say if fee paying sponsors for the website and new members are deterred from being such due to anything written here then I expect he will be less than happy - regardless of the topic which alienates them. 

This is, when all is said and done, a business venture for him.

I am asking that we all remember what this forum is for and the global community it potentially serves.  No more and no less.  Regardless of belief, colour, race, creed, political affiliation or nationality etc., the hurdles Ukraine presents to any foreigner living and/or working here can be difficult to circumnavigate regardless of "who you know" within or without Ukraine.

Whilst this forum is not the only place to seek solutions to the problems encountered by foreigners in Ukraine (there are numerous forums and some quite excellent city/town specific ones if you speak Russian or Ukrainian) - and despite occasionally the solutions offered here may leave a lot to be desired - it is still a fairly good starting point. 

As such it needs, by its very nature, to be welcoming to all and sundry regardless of religion, nationality, colour or any other category humanity likes to segregate itself into.  Given the ever increasing numbers of Chinese, Indian and Turkish entrepreneurs in Ukraine, that necessarily includes Muslims, Hindus, Sheiks, Taoists, Buddhists et al - if the forum is to accomplish what it was created for and help the maximum amount of people it can then it falls on all members to consider this when they post.

To insure that remains the situation, there is then a responsibility placed on members to exercise the right to freedom of speech and expression with careful consideration for the wording they use to make their point - Something that is occasionally forgotten by some and reminders are therefore required.

It is fair to say that Ace123 has posted another reminder above.  I am quite sure that if he feels a need to cull some memberships to retain the atmosphere he wants the board to have, then that will undoubtedly occur sooner rather than later.

I would therefore appeal the all members to pay due care and attention to how they convey what they want to say lest they be banished - but also to remember first and foremost, what this forum is for - and that is not only surviving, but succeeding in Ukraine.

[fionnain]

You may not have noticed P-N, but the ad just below your most recent post on this thread was placed by the CATHOLIC CHURCH.  As one of the sponsers of the site, I am sure that the Church is not offended by a bible verse, but I am sure they would be offended by the Christian Missionary bashing that has been tolerated here. 

The point that you missed is the double standard.  You did not want to read bible verses because you were concerned atheists might be offended, but you offered no such warning to those who quite liberally bashed Christians and missionaries.  If you are going to warn people not to post Bible verses, then specifically warn people not to post anti-Christian and anti-Christian Missionary comments. 

Your prior explanation failed to address the real issue of the double standard.  The was no warning to not bash Christians, but there sure was a warning not to post Bible verses. 

[Glyn Thomas.]

I think that this debate has carried on enough.. way past the point of being useful to anyone... .so I am locking the topic.

Please note that generally I am prepared to take a very inclusive tolerant view to most issues but eventually my patience wears thin. Not on who is right or wrong but just with the pointlessness of the debate. This is not a virtual soapbox - its an Expat forum.

It's all very interesting to the poster perhaps, but what we want to talk about and read about here on this forum are three things:

1) UKRAINE

2) UKRAINE

3) UKRAINE

If anyone wants to slug it out about gun control in Kansas, religion, gay marriage or whether Elvis is still alive I suggest they PM each other.