Demographics of Ukraine

[youngken]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Ukraine
Judging by losing of population, I believe Ukraine must be more open for immigrant.

[Reggie]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Ukraine
Judging by losing of population, I believe Ukraine must be more open for immigrant.

It's interesting that you bring this up because I talked with another forum member about this off-site.

Ukraine is indeed a dying country.   

Since the end of the USSR births have dropped dramatically.   Deaths grown dramatically.  (It has nothing to do with the war.)

They already have a shortage of people for the amount of land they have.  [Fixed Typo:  Ukraine doesn't have enough people, not too many.]

I'm not sure immigration is going to fix their problem because they are somewhat anti-immigrant and I can't imagine immigrants dying to defend the soil here in light of that mindset and the other games that go on.

Yes, the TRP / PRP formalities are largely a game to generate cash; a lot of talented immigrants should just be rubber-stamped into Ukraine. 

Young women aren't having children; that's what it comes down to (it's how birth rates decline).   And that's a separate  discussion unless someone wants to get into it. 

[kyivkpic]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Ukraine
Judging by losing of population, I believe Ukraine must be more open for immigrant.

It's interesting that you bring this up because I talked with another forum member about this off-site.

Ukraine is indeed a dying country.   

Since the end of the USSR births have dropped dramatically.   Deaths grown dramatically.  (It has nothing to do with the war.)

They already have too many people for the amount of land they have.

I'm not sure immigration is going to fix their problem because they are somewhat anti-immigrant and I can't imagine immigrants dying to defend the soil here in light of that mindset and the other games that go on.

Yes, the TRP / PRP formalities are largely a game to generate cash; a lot of talented immigrants should just be rubber-stamped into Ukraine. 

Young women aren't having children; that's what it comes down to (it's how birth rates decline).   And that's a separate  discussion unless someone wants to get into it.

It's kind of neither here nor there. Highly developed societies stop breeding as well. The vast majority of humans are about to be rendered absolutely obsolete in terms of careers and jobs.

[youngken]

At least 5 million of them working abroad
https://112.international/ukraine-top-news/at-least-5-million-ukrainians-left-to-live-abroad-ukraines-foreign-ministry-5834.html
Property investment seems no good anymore

[Reggie]

Property investment seems no good anymore

Whatever you buy in Ukraine be prepared to be swindled out of at some point.  Might not happen, but it might.

It's not really a place for investment - not yet; maybe never.   

You want a good rate of return on your investment, some protection for your investment, and liquidity to be able to move it around, right?  That's not here.

[Paulenko]

I think the decline in population in Ukraine is pretty natural, given the poverty in the country and the lack of real opportunities for many people here. It's understandable that many Ukrainians seek work opportunities overseas, mainly in other European countries. There are over a million Ukrainians working in Poland alone.

Reggie you are right about the increase in deaths in Ukraine after the fall of the USSR. But your assertion that Ukraine has too many people for the amount of land in Ukraine is not really true. Ukraine is 126th in the world when it comes to population density. Never mind the third world, but even advanced Western Countries like the UK, the Netherlands, Belgium, Germany, Italy, Switzerland, Austria, Spain and France have much higher population densities than Ukraine. So I wouldn't site this as a major issue in Ukraine.

I also agree with you that immigration won't solve the problem here. There is a strong sense of nationalism here and I am sure they would not want loads of foreigners here, even if they were to benefit Ukraine.

I have to say that it is sensible that young women in Ukraine are only having a small amount of children. It's sensible in the sense that they can't really afford many children. It is better to bring up a few children and at least give them a decent upbringing, than having many children who you can't take care of properly. Obviously this results in a decreasing population and yes it's not ideal for Ukraine as a country. But as we all know, Ukraine is a real mess and life for most locals here is really tough.

[Paulenko]

@youngken, that article about 5 million Ukrainians working overseas is interesting. I was aware that there are obviously special seasonal work for Ukrainians in Poland for example. I also that many Ukrainians work in Italy legally mainly as housemaids. But I wasn't aware of how Ukrainians work legally in Spain or Germany for example. Is there special work which enables Ukrainians to go and work legally in these countries as well?

[youngken]

@youngken, that article about 5 million Ukrainians working overseas is interesting. I was aware that there are obviously special seasonal work for Ukrainians in Poland for example. I also that many Ukrainians work in Italy legally mainly as housemaids. But I wasn't aware of how Ukrainians work legally in Spain or Germany for example. Is there special work which enables Ukrainians to go and work legally in these countries as well?

As far as I know, nursing and housemaid are common in Spain and Sweden.

[youngken]

@youngken, that article about 5 million Ukrainians working overseas is interesting. I was aware that there are obviously special seasonal work for Ukrainians in Poland for example. I also that many Ukrainians work in Italy legally mainly as housemaids. But I wasn't aware of how Ukrainians work legally in Spain or Germany for example. Is there special work which enables Ukrainians to go and work legally in these countries as well?

As far as I know, nursing and housemaid are common in Spain and Sweden.
I also knew some guy worked in IT

[Reggie]

But your assertion that Ukraine has too many people for the amount of land in Ukraine is not really true.

Typo:  Not true at all; you are correct.

Ukraine doesn't have enough people for the amount of land it has; and it will have less people in the future. 

It should say, Ukraine has a shortage of people - not enough people in relation to the size of its territory. 

Thanks for catching that.  My mistake.

[Paulenko]

Yeah Reggie, Ukraine is the largest country in Europe(if you exclude Russia)in terms of area, but it has a relatively low population density. The situation as you say, will get worse. Now that Ukrainians have visa free entry into the EU, many of them work in EU countries illegally. This visa free regime has made it easier for them to enter into EU territory and work illegally. When you're extremely poor, the risk of working in this way is worth it for many people.

It is a shame seeing so many Ukrainians leave, as Ukraine has so much potential. But the powers that be in Ukraine have really ruined this country. I am not a big fan of Poroshenko, but the one thing I support him on are his ambitions for Ukraine to join the EU. However, as things stand, it is looking more and more unlikely that it will ever happen.

[Paulenko]

Property investment seems no good anymore

Whatever you buy in Ukraine be prepared to be swindled out of at some point.  Might not happen, but it might.

It's not really a place for investment - not yet; maybe never.   

You want a good rate of return on your investment, some protection for your investment, and liquidity to be able to move it around, right?  That's not here.

Properties don't appreciate much at all in Ukraine. But the rate of return can be quite good Reggie, considering you can buy properties for really cheap prices and rent them out. Even if the rent you receive is also low, the rates of return aren't that bad. I think if you want to sell your property here, you need to be prepared to wait a very very long time. As far as the lack of protection for owning a property goes, would you say that this applies to everyone in Ukraine? Or are locals more protected than foreigners in your opinion?

[Danno99]

It seems experts keep sending out conflicting forecasts.

1) Countries need a large flow of immigrants to keep the economy going and healthy,

2) We are at the verge of technology (such as smart robotics,) whhich will eliminate whole sectors of employment and we had better prepair for that.

[Ted]

2) We are at the verge of technology (such as smart robotics,) whhich will eliminate whole sectors of employment and we had better prepair for that.

Not in this backwards country. It is still 1950's Soviet poop.

[kyivkpic]

2) We are at the verge of technology (such as smart robotics,) whhich will eliminate whole sectors of employment and we had better prepair for that.

Not in this backwards country. It is still 1950's Soviet poop.

Actually those AI systems and robots are being built here.