Author Topic: Just how Socialist has America become  (Read 4392 times)

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Offline clanholmes

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Re: Just how Socialist has America become
« Reply #15 on: 20:24 04-Jun-2009 »
Problem with the USA is that it has lost its way and become a bunch highly bureaucratic fat lazy bastards.

Clanholmes,

You really don't know what "tact" is, do you?

Truth hurts doesn't it.


You know, to make a generalized statement about any group of people based on a narrow view of a very broad, very global problem that is fueled by a narrow stream of individuals in that society is one of the most narrow minded things a person can do. I have no damn clue where I, a 22 year old with an English and Anthropolgy degree, working in the marketing department of a software company who plays jazz on the side, living on a completely different side of the world, fit into your generalized, jackass statement. And the same goes for other Americans that don't spend their time chasing ambulances, milking the world of its resources, or trying to make the biggest buck in the smallest amount of time.

I agree that the system is screwed up. It's a pity that those making 40K per year can't afford to get sick because insurance companies make more money when they turn people down and doctors and hospitals charge outrageously high (in Russian I know just the right words to describe them) prices because a lawyer spends his time finding ways to make himself and others rich while the president is accepting money from lobbyists for such groups of scum.

But please, let's not reduce ourselves to playing on stereotypes.


Did I say every American fits this bill? Nope, I said it has become a country of highly bureaucratic fat lazy bastards. It is a comment on the situation of America and its leadership, not generalization of the people of America. Again, Americans have the highest production per man hour than ANY nation in the world. So is the average American private sector worker fat and lazy, quite the opposite, but public sector is the opposite in which less is getting down for a greater cost.  So if I offend, I am sorry, but it is the nature of the governments and modern day culture that is ruining a great nation.


In which I mean that the public sector is advancing at alarming rate and private sector is shrinking. The debt that USA is looking at is highest and possible a downgrade to double A from triple A rating. Tax rates are booming. To reduce unemployment, government assistance is increasing, but manufacturing & service sector is moving offshore.
So tell me who is going to pay the bill?

If you think that you are alone, look at the UK.
I know nothing except the fact of my ignorance.
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Offline clanholmes

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Re: Just how Socialist has America become
« Reply #16 on: 20:44 04-Jun-2009 »
Another source
A study in 2005 by the non-partisan Employee Benefit Research Institute estimated that the average public-sector worker earned 46 percent MORE (my emphasis) in salary and benefits than a comparable private-sector worker.

The gap only continues to grow.  For example, state and local worker pay and benefits rose  3.1 percent in the last year compared to 1.9 percent in the private sector, according to the Bureau of Labor Statistics (BLS).

But, the real power of the public sector is showing through in this economic crisis.  Some five million private-sector workers have lost their jobs in the last year alone, and their unemployment rate is above 9 percent, according to the BLS.

By contrast, public-sector employment has grown in virtually every month of the recession, and the jobless rate for government workers  is a mere 2.8 percent.

For anyone who thinks such low unemployment numbers are good news, remember that the bulging public sector must be paid with revenues that most governments don?t currently have.


It is more profitable to work a government fat cat job, then go into the private sector. The private sector is getting taxed to support these jobs which have increase 20% from 2002 to 2006. public sector also compete with the Private sector for the best and brightest. With 46% increase in compensation over the Private, guess who wins.



With increased government and decreased private sector, who is left to pay the deficit?


BTW there is a huge difference between bureaucracy and regulation.

Sorry Ray, but I like the OLD Capitalist USA.

Much of the world is industrializing and becoming more productive.  Part of the problem is that in America and in the rest of the world, fewer workers produce more of the goods consumed, every year.  The crisis will actually accelerate this trend.  So, what do you do with the surplus population, who are not needed in the industrial or agricultural sectors, and in fact, who despite being, educated, often over educated, and being virtually useless despite that, do nevertheless have more than their share of social or political power?  What do you do with the extra people?
Socialism is an incredibly inefficient way to use all that educated energy and potential.
   The world needs a new model of capitalism, that can employ all those empty hands.  Unfortunately it isn't invented yet.  So, we have to endure socialism, for now.

That is not the issue. The west is being forced to share the wealth and the "give me convenience or give me death" society is being challenged.
The west had (still do) this better than though attitude and though the good times would never end. But countries like India, China, Brazil and even Russia have learn to use the capital to build their own economies and compete with the west.
Why would I pay someone in the UK 40,000 pounds to do an IT job while someone in Ukraine will do the same job for 4,000 pounds. It does not care about that the UK IT person has to pay expensive beer and housing. It does not care about the Government spent billions to fight a war in Iraq and Afghanistan. It looks for the lowest costs.
Only thing that is still separates the haves from the have nots is resources.

In Canada, we are just as dumb, but we have raw resources to spend until we are in a bad situation like the UK and USA.
« Last Edit: 20:55 04-Jun-2009 by clanholmes »
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Offline BritKyiv

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Re: Just how Socialist has America become
« Reply #17 on: 23:06 04-Jun-2009 »
Hey, its late I know and I spent most of this evening with the boss of the EU-Ukraine Business Council.

But my take on this is that I think that the WEST is changing places with the EAST.

Very soon we will see MORE capitalism in the east and more socialism in the WEST
This is not based on any solid research, but just my gut feeling and the conversations I have had with many people during the past six years.

Maybe we are starting to see more state socialism in the United Kingdom and the USA than every before.
Whilst in the former soviet union we see MORE capitalism than we expected.
Here in the EAST, its a matter of swim or sink/die.
What I would call 'Dickensian Capitalism' (Capitalism at its extreme)

Where in the UK and USA we now have many social protectionist systems to protect people from that bad system called capitalism.
I escaped. Now in Sunny Cyprus

Offline Vera

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Re: Just how Socialist has America become
« Reply #18 on: 07:59 05-Jun-2009 »
How about we start using birth control and teach our children to do the same. Could be a solution to the problem.....you know. Yesterday met a neighbor, a woman in her late thirties, a housewife with 5 (!!!!!!!) kids. So she goes on complaining how she does not have insurance and has to pay $ 50 per visit to doctor's office every time her child gets sick with a common cold (Socialism? What socialism?!). As a mother I empathize BUT if people quit making so many babies (which is not doable cause people are stupid) and concentrated on quality instead of quantity, there will be enough work for everyone and /or the laws of supply and demand would kick in, whereas people would actually be in demand and not be expendable as they are now......

Quote
What do you do with the extra people?
Socialism is an incredibly inefficient way to use all that educated energy and potential.
   The world needs a new model of capitalism, that can employ all those empty hands.  Unfortunately it isn't invented yet.  So, we have to endure socialism, for now.
« Last Edit: 08:35 05-Jun-2009 by Vera »
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Offline Billy T

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Re: Just how Socialist has America become
« Reply #19 on: 08:39 05-Jun-2009 »
See, this is where the liberal's argument for Big Government healthcare breaks down. It makes assumptions that we self-reliant individuals care about you, or your petty financial concerns.

1. If you can't afford to get sick or have an injury, don't.

2. If you do get sick, get cancer, get injured, etc... do the right thing and suffer in private. Don't go expecting "society" to help you out... what are we, Swedish?

3. Universal heathcare could never work in a country the size of the US, just like an Autobahn-type roadway system could never work in the US... just too big. Economies of scale stop working after 25 million people... everyone knows that.

4. I don't trust the government with our Military, Space Program, Food and Drug standards, etc... why should I trust them to administer an insurance program?

5. Everyone know the private sector is always superior to the public sector in every capacity, always. Our titans of industry are completely unfettered by corruption, greed, profiteering, and they never have to answer to quarterly earnings expectations. Besides, the companies are run by Boards of Directors that are completely impartial... they'll fire an executive and freeze their bonuses if the company shows any sign of faltering. History proves this true, people.

6. If it weren't for all of the lawsuits (which account for 78% of all medical spending), healthcare would be practically free in the US.

7. Illegal immigrants make up the other 22% of all healthcare costs. We need to make sure they die in the gutter, like they deserve to do. They aren't human, by virtue of being born in other countries. Their US born kids are suspect too.

8. Besides, if someone is really sick or injured, they can just go to the ER. Emergency rooms charge $100 per aspirin to the 6% of people who will actually pay... Hospitals are rich, they can take the loss on non-payers, but only if they feel like it. They, as private businesses, have the right to turn away anyone, even if that person is dying. Everyone knows this.

Seriously, wake up libs! You are being force-fed lies by "Big Government" using silly things like statistics, numbers, evidence, and facts. You never hear libs talking about my cousins friend who lives in Canada, who had to wait 2 months for an MRI for his chronic back pain. Can you imagine that indignity? Or my neighbor's old roommate who once got diagnosed with a sinus infection when it was strep throat at the VA. He was hobuttock  for a week! Stupid libs, indeed.
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Online David Rochlin

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Re: Just how Socialist has America become
« Reply #20 on: 08:46 05-Jun-2009 »
How about we start using birth control and teach our children to do the same. Could be a solution to the problem.....you know. Yesterday met a neighbor, a woman in her late thirties, a housewife with 5 (!!!!!!!) kids. So she goes on complaining how she does not have insurance and has to pay $ 50 per visit to doctor's office every time her child gets sick with a common cold (Socialism? What socialism?!). As a mother I empathize BUT if people quit making so many babies (which is not doable cause people are stupid) and concentrated on quality instead of quantity, there will be enough work for everyone and /or the laws of supply and demand would kick in, whereas people would actually be in demand and not be expendable as they are now......

Quote
What do you do with the extra people?
Socialism is an incredibly inefficient way to use all that educated energy and potential.
   The world needs a new model of capitalism, that can employ all those empty hands.  Unfortunately it isn't invented yet.  So, we have to endure socialism, for now.


Consider that one of the reasons for Ukraine being in a depression, while most countries merely suffer terrible recessions (this is one reason, not all of the many,) but one reason is that Ukraine's population is in freefall.  The population of Ukraine will probably decline by about fifteen million in the next twenty years.   
A jobless population presents problems, to be sure, but a population also is a market of consumers, and that is good for many measures of economic health. 
Several developed countries are looking at demographic bombs, dismal futures resulting from population decline and low birth rates.  It looks worse for them, than for America.  Italy and Japan probably top the list.  Japan will start to have severe problems with pensioners being supported by all to few young workers, just in the next few years.  Babies are expensive, but they are the future, accidental or otherwise.

Offline Vera

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Re: Just how Socialist has America become
« Reply #21 on: 08:52 05-Jun-2009 »
Babies are the future but too many of them equals no future at all. Populations grow exponentially. There are too many people and not enough resources. All future war will be over limited resources . People at present ARE expendable and will be even more so in the future as population growth. Ukraine's problem is not population decline,the problem is inapt government. The crisis in Ukraine has nothing to do with lack of people able to work it is that people and resources are not managed properly.
« Last Edit: 09:01 05-Jun-2009 by Vera »
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Offline Vera

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Re: Just how Socialist has America become
« Reply #22 on: 08:59 05-Jun-2009 »
This is like one of the cruelest things I have ever heard. Perhaps with a stretch you can apply this "logic" to an adult BUT how many children there are who are seriously ill and need a lot of care and treatment. I argue that ALL children must be ensured regardless. It so untrue that a person is a master of their fate. Sometimes that same fate might play a really cruel joke on any individual and if we do not help each other out ,how are we better then animals who eat their own kind when they fall sick or weak.



If you do get sick, get cancer, get injured, etc... do the right thing and suffer in private. Don't go expecting "society" to help you out... what are we, Swedish?
« Last Edit: 09:02 05-Jun-2009 by Vera »
"You never really know a guy until you've stared at him for 8 hours through high powered binoculars." -Spongebob Squarepants

Offline P-N

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Re: Just how Socialist has America become
« Reply #23 on: 09:04 05-Jun-2009 »
I happen to agree with you Vera.  The world is overpopulated by the human species......I don't mean per person per meter, but for the way the majority of societies have evolved or are evolving, the inherent financial and envorinmental costs are immence.

As a species, we are defying nature (survival of the fittest) through scientific and medical break throughs......prolonging the life of the individual by various means.......and the masses by large scale innoculations.

This is of course a noble cause and our ability to do such things is what seperates us from the other animal species on the planet.......unfortunately, the long term effect is detrimental to our own species.

The question is how to control birth rates in some areas of the world and increase it in others.....assuming the human species will stick to the invisible lines of nationalism and borders over which so many wars have been fought.

Wars and politics now revolve around oil, gas and other natural resources.......but this will change to food and more specifically, water, the way the human race is expanding.

Birth control is the obvious answer......until it comes down to the actual remembering to take that little pill every single day, or bagging up every time.......assuming you get get a consistant supply to every adult on the planet.  When it comes to sex and lust......chances are taken by even the most normally responsible adults with easy access to contraception.  

Then who is responsible for saying you can only produce 2 children......or 1 child.  Why can A have 2 when B can only have 1?  Who makes that decision?  Wars have been fought over more irrational things than somebody somewhere dictating a nations birth rates.

The least politcal and random way is for a global pandemic to grip the human species, and one which the pharma companies cannot react quickly enough to.

That sounds a terrible thing to say, but the human race cannot be relied upon to deal with this issue any other way......because some people or countries will always be "more equal" than others.  Ergo a pandemic which recognises no politics, no borders, no religion and no individual is the only way this issue will be dealt with, without any form of political or military backlash from those who would feel they have been wrongly targetted.

It's like waiting for the 4 horsemen from a book I once read.  ;)

Ultimately it will be nature, either by lack of resources or a pandemic, which will curtail the human species because we certainly cannot be relied upon to do it ourselves.
"When surrounded by the dark void of the willfully blind, it does not excuse those that are a spark of light their duty to shine" - Me

Offline Billy T

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Re: Just how Socialist has America become
« Reply #24 on: 09:18 05-Jun-2009 »
This is like one of the cruelest things I have ever heard. Perhaps with a stretch you can apply this "logic" to an adult BUT how many children there are who are seriously ill and need a lot of care and treatment. I argue that ALL children must be ensured regardless. It so untrue that a person is a master of their fate. Sometimes that same fate might play a really cruel joke on any individual and if we do not help each other out ,how are we better then animals who eat their own kind when they fall sick or weak.



If you do get sick, get cancer, get injured, etc... do the right thing and suffer in private. Don't go expecting "society" to help you out... what are we, Swedish?

The whole thing is satire poking at the arguments against equitable medical care.....It aint Swift's Modest Proposal, but it aint mine, and it made me lol.....

The fact is that the system as it is currently is, is not onlt a threat to peoples health and well being but to the economy as a whole...
http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20090604/hl_nm/us_healthcare_bankruptcy

Insurance companies are evil bastards engaging in some sort of legalized extortion......

Illegal and Bad: Tony the Mobster comes to you and says for 200 dollars a week they can insure your pizza place won't burn down and nobody in your family will have an "accident"...

Legal and Good: Bob the Insurance Sales Man comes to you and says for 200 dollars a week they'll take care of you or your family if something "bad" happens, though whether they will or not is far from certain....

Sure they're different but only by a degree or two....
"The story of the gay sheep showed what can result when science meets global news"--The International Herald Tribune, January 26th, 2007.

Offline Vera

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Re: Just how Socialist has America become
« Reply #25 on: 09:20 05-Jun-2009 »
Well I kinda took it literally at first. My fault. Mine was an attack on an argument itself and nothing personal.

This is like one of the cruelest things I have ever heard. Perhaps with a stretch you can apply this "logic" to an adult BUT how many children there are who are seriously ill and need a lot of care and treatment. I argue that ALL children must be ensured regardless. It so untrue that a person is a master of their fate. Sometimes that same fate might play a really cruel joke on any individual and if we do not help each other out ,how are we better then animals who eat their own kind when they fall sick or weak.



If you do get sick, get cancer, get injured, etc... do the right thing and suffer in private. Don't go expecting "society" to help you out... what are we, Swedish?

The whole thing is satire poking at the arguments against equitable medical care.....It aint Swift's Modest Proposal, but it aint mine, and it made me lol.....

The fact is that the system as it is currently is, is not onlt a threat to peoples health and well being but to the economy as a whole...
http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20090604/hl_nm/us_healthcare_bankruptcy

Insurance companies are evil bastards engaging in some sort of legalized extortion......

Illegal and Bad: Tony the Mobster comes to you and says for 200 dollars a week they can insure your pizza place won't burn down and nobody in your family will have an "accident"...

Legal and Good: Bob the Insurance Sales Man comes to you and says for 200 dollars a week they'll take care of you or your family if something "bad" happens, though whether they will or not is far from certain....

Sure they're different but only by a degree or two....
"You never really know a guy until you've stared at him for 8 hours through high powered binoculars." -Spongebob Squarepants

Offline MWDabbs

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Re: Just how Socialist has America become
« Reply #26 on: 04:40 06-Jun-2009 »
That chart is hugely off by a few trillion in government owned bank, real estate, and insurance company ownership.  Let's not forget that 1 in 6 Americans live off a government check, too.  Then there's the entire military industry - which may not exactly be government, but who's their biggest customer?  Is Jet Blue offering $99 flights from NYC to Tampa with F-111's?  So, if you can show me that all of this fits into that $90 billion sliver on that chart... and not crack a smile, you'd be better than Aunt Jemima Buttercake Pancake mix with real Vermont maple syrup!

Point is that say you have a business and you are doing okay, not fantastic, but making ends meet.  A few doors down, a really big company moves in that is atrociously managed - but it will never go out of business because it is too big to fail.  It can waste millions of dollars and no one will blink an eye.  But you don't happen to know someone from Goldman-Sachs who can recommend a perpetual open line of credit...how do you compete?  You can for a while, but you will always be at a disadvantage.  That is the problem with this selective too big to fail issue.

Companies are never too big to fail, when they fail - other companies move in and take up the slack, leaving the waste material behind. 

The socialize losses, privatize gains plan is not going to advance very many people's interests.  But, there is this conspiracy theory floating around about plans for a massive population reduction program - I honestly think that could work pretty good, provided you aren't among those "getting reduced".  Otherwise, it is the one sure-fire way to resolve most of mankind's problems. 

The extremely unfortunate aspect of this plan is that those on the list to not be reduced are probably among those who did the most to help create this problem.  Getting "reduced" might not be such a bad option after all...  ;D

I like the massive coronal ejection idea most though - nothing like a bright ray of sunshine!   ::) ;D :o
We cannot afford governments that cannot afford to take care of our veterans.