Author Topic: "UKRAINE" or "THE UKRAINE" (SPLIT from Re: Retiring in the Ukraine)  (Read 1675 times)

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Offline Packman

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I'm a lawyer in St. Louis.  I'm thinking of retiring in 2 or 3 years and becoming an expatriate to write my novel.  My inclination is somewhere on the Adriatic Sea.  However, what about on the water somewhere in the Ukraine or is it really, really bad there.  

I'm usually not a pinhead, but Augie please don't call it "The Ukraine"...its simply "Ukraine" calling it "The Ukraine" simply implies its a borderland probably of the Russian empire!

« Last Edit: 08:52 10-Nov-2009 by The Old Man »


Offline David Rochlin

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Re: Retiring in the Ukraine
« Reply #1 on: 20:29 08-Nov-2009 »
I'm a lawyer in St. Louis.  I'm thinking of retiring in 2 or 3 years and becoming an expatriate to write my novel.  My inclination is somewhere on the Adriatic Sea.  However, what about on the water somewhere in the Ukraine or is it really, really bad there. 

I'm usually not a pinhead, but Augie please don't call it "The Ukraine"...its simply "Ukraine" calling it "The Ukraine" simply implies its a borderland probably of the Russian empire!

I have been experimenting with trying to write U.S. without using the word "The" in front of it.  Frankly, it only works sometimes and doesn't sound at all right other times, forcing me  to substitute "America."  I am afraid some geographical names sort of demand the word "The" in front of them at times, in certain sentences and not in others.  The English language makes it sound tortured, otherwise. 

Carlusha

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Re: Retiring in the Ukraine
« Reply #2 on: 20:59 08-Nov-2009 »
I'm a lawyer in St. Louis.  I'm thinking of retiring in 2 or 3 years and becoming an expatriate to write my novel.  My inclination is somewhere on the Adriatic Sea.  However, what about on the water somewhere in the Ukraine or is it really, really bad there.  

I'm usually not a pinhead, but Augie please don't call it "The Ukraine"...its simply "Ukraine" calling it "The Ukraine" simply implies its a borderland probably of the Russian empire!

I have been experimenting with trying to write U.S. without using the word "The" in front of it.  Frankly, it only works sometimes and doesn't sound at all right other times, forcing me  to substitute "America."  I am afraid some geographical names sort of demand the word "The" in front of them at times, in certain sentences and not in others.  The English language makes it sound tortured, otherwise.  

I doubt anyone will argue with that logic. However, Ukraine is a country. Any Ukrainian proud of his or her country would not appreciate the usage of "The" Ukraine.

The UN recognises Ukraine whether in English or Russian.

http://www.un.org/en/members/index.shtml#u

http://www.un.org/ru/members/

Finally, The Declaration of Independence indicates quite clearly "UKRAINE"

Declaration of State Sovereignty of Ukraine   from The Rada official site



Offline Packman

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Re: Retiring in the Ukraine
« Reply #3 on: 21:02 08-Nov-2009 »
I'm not a grammar expert but the US should take "the" because it is not simply a name but a description of the states.  While Ukraine is now simply a name of a country and not a description as it was previously in the Russian empire known as the "borderlands".  So calling Ukraine, "The Ukraine" disrespects Ukraine as a country, much the way Puty Put sneers at Ukraine "not being a historical country" and thus not worthy of respect.

America is also not correct in refering to the US, as this refers to anywhere from Alaska to Tierra del Fuego.  Although, I think most citizens of the US do refer to themselves as Americans...perhaps because its the US of America.  

Offline David Rochlin

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Re: Retiring in the Ukraine
« Reply #4 on: 22:08 08-Nov-2009 »
I'm not a grammar expert but the US should take "the" because it is not simply a name but a description of the states.  While Ukraine is now simply a name of a country and not a description as it was previously in the Russian empire known as the "borderlands".  So calling Ukraine, "The Ukraine" disrespects Ukraine as a country, much the way Puty Put sneers at Ukraine "not being a historical country" and thus not worthy of respect.

America is also not correct in refering to the US, as this refers to anywhere from Alaska to Tierra del Fuego.  Although, I think most citizens of the US do refer to themselves as Americans...perhaps because its the US of America.  

Well, you are right that outside of the U.S., it is frowned on by some citizens of the rest of the Americas, when U.S. citizens refer to their country as America, as if the rest of the Americas don't matter enough to deserve consideration.  Most of them have learned to live with this attitude, however.

Offline seek77

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Re: Retiring in the Ukraine
« Reply #5 on: 03:40 10-Nov-2009 »
I have been experimenting with trying to write U.S. without using the word "The" in front of it.  Frankly, it only works sometimes and doesn't sound at all right other times, forcing me  to substitute "America."  I am afraid some geographical names sort of demand the word "The" in front of them at times, in certain sentences and not in others.  The English language makes it sound tortured, otherwise. 

You are going about this backwards.

Ukraine is the name of an independent country. There are only two groups of countries which require the article in English: Those with plural names such as the United States or the Netherlands. The others have names with adjectival or compound forms which require the article, such as the United Kingdom, and the Dominion of Canada.  English grammar does not require a definite article before the names of singular countries such as England, Canada or Ukraine.

Geographical regions such as the Arctic, the Atlantic, the North, the West, and the prairies all require the definite article, but these are not countries.

So you are trying to force the correct dropping of 'the' before Ukraine to fit for the case of The United States.

But Unites States is plural, thus requiring 'the.'

Those who put 'the' before Ukraine fall into a couple of categories.

First, they are lazy and thinking that 'the' goes before a country that starts with the letter 'U' since it works for United States and United Kingdom.

Second, they are being deliberately disrespectful to Ukraine by hinting that it is a region rather than a country.

Offline seek77

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Re: Retiring in the Ukraine
« Reply #6 on: 03:43 10-Nov-2009 »
Well, you are right that outside of the U.S., it is frowned on by some citizens of the rest of the Americas, when U.S. citizens refer to their country as America, as if the rest of the Americas don't matter enough to deserve consideration.  Most of them have learned to live with this attitude, however.

Actually I have found just the opposite problem.

I always refer to myself as being from the United States.

But then, the foreigners I am talking to always refer to me as being from America.

Offline David Rochlin

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Re: Retiring in the Ukraine
« Reply #7 on: 04:14 10-Nov-2009 »
Well, you are right that outside of the U.S., it is frowned on by some citizens of the rest of the Americas, when U.S. citizens refer to their country as America, as if the rest of the Americas don't matter enough to deserve consideration.  Most of them have learned to live with this attitude, however.

Actually I have found just the opposite problem.

I always refer to myself as being from the United States.

But then, the foreigners I am talking to always refer to me as being from America.

Well, they probably aren't Canadians...

Offline mattsh

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Re: Retiring in the Ukraine
« Reply #8 on: 07:22 10-Nov-2009 »
The poster of the original question has already left the thread, no doubt because it turned into a discussion of "Ukraine" vs. "the Ukraine". 

I don't think it helps to lecture every newcomer to expatua about things like this. 

???
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Carlusha

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Re: Retiring in the Ukraine
« Reply #9 on: 08:53 10-Nov-2009 »
The poster of the original question has already left the thread, no doubt because it turned into a discussion of "Ukraine" vs. "the Ukraine". 

I don't think it helps to lecture every newcomer to expatua about things like this. 

???

Yes, quite right, Matt. I've split out the "offending" posts and located them here.

Offline matlockk

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Re: Retiring in the Ukraine
« Reply #10 on: 09:14 10-Nov-2009 »
I have been experimenting with trying to write U.S. without using the word "The" in front of it.  Frankly, it only works sometimes and doesn't sound at all right other times, forcing me  to substitute "America."  I am afraid some geographical names sort of demand the word "The" in front of them at times, in certain sentences and not in others.  The English language makes it sound tortured, otherwise. 

You are going about this backwards.

Ukraine is the name of an independent country. There are only two groups of countries which require the article in English: Those with plural names such as the United States or the Netherlands. The others have names with adjectival or compound forms which require the article, such as the United Kingdom, and the Dominion of Canada.  English grammar does not require a definite article before the names of singular countries such as England, Canada or Ukraine.

Geographical regions such as the Arctic, the Atlantic, the North, the West, and the prairies all require the definite article, but these are not countries.

So you are trying to force the correct dropping of 'the' before Ukraine to fit for the case of The United States.

But Unites States is plural, thus requiring 'the.'

Those who put 'the' before Ukraine fall into a couple of categories.

First, they are lazy and thinking that 'the' goes before a country that starts with the letter 'U' since it works for United States and United Kingdom.

Second, they are being deliberately disrespectful to Ukraine by hinting that it is a region rather than a country.

The Gambia?

Let's also widen the discussion to if it should be v or na in Russian!