Author Topic: Any differences between Ukrainian and Russian women?  (Read 27171 times)

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JonathanCampion

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Any differences between Ukrainian and Russian women?
« Reply #15 on: 07:45 22-Feb-2008 »
I agree and disagree with the last posts.

"Differences" can mean many things, and if it is boob size that the person who asked the question was after then it's a topic best forgotten. But there are differences between Russians and Ukrainians, the same as there are between Russia and Ukraine, in terms of culture and customs. It isn't judgemental as long as the debate is objective.

Russian women (for the record I don't have massive experience in this) seem more carefree. Ukrainian women seem more selfless and grown-up. But as young people in Kyiv are all trying to be decadent Muscovites, the gap is closing.

It shouldn't matter where a girl is from, though, if you get on well.


Offline SmartJAzzInOdessa

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Re: Any differences between Ukrainian and Russian women?
« Reply #16 on: 09:36 22-Feb-2008 »
:-D The boob size comment was meant for irony :-)  I simply meant to say that generalizations don't apply, and that one can't search for a wife by nationality, and you can't window shop for wives on agency websites, nor should the reason for being in a foreign country be to search for a wife.  In general, each woman is different... You'll find an uptight Ukrainian, and an uptight Russian.  You'll also find a carefree Ukrainian, and a Russian counterpart.  Every experience that a person has influences who that person is.  And yes, of course there are differences in culture, but this isn't necessarily going to allow for categorizations.  For example, yes, Ukraine has its own culture, but so does Kiev, so does Kharkov, so does Kherson.  Even the eastern and western parts.  And even then, you have subcultures within cities... Sorry for the long posts... Anthropology major speaking :-D
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Offline SilverBullet

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Re: Any differences between Ukrainian and Russian women?
« Reply #17 on: 09:38 24-Feb-2008 »
rayjazz21
Don’t take it too seriously, of course one can not generalize and place labels on different groups of people. All groups consist of very different individuals, still sometimes there can be certain differences between nationalities in broad general terms. It can be due to culture, faith, educational system, political system etc.

As for marriage agencies being a disgrace, I think that is too harsh of a statement. Why is that? In my opinion it is just another place for people to meet. What about the internet, dating web sites, you find that in every country. There are plenty of them in America for sure Match.com, YahooPersonals.com, a long list. The important thing is that the internet lets people to meet and connect over great distances. As an example, for someone living in Lugansk it is possible to make friends and meet people all over the world. The same for someone in China and in the USA. The society is changing with this globalization and opens up endless of opportunities in business, careers, the social arena and everything else. I think the "traditional" marriage agencies is an alternative for some who doesn’t have easy access to a computer and the internet at home, or who doesn’t speak English. The important thing is that for many it opens up new opportunities and is a place to meet for those who have an interest.

All this said, a Ukrainian friend of mine met her Ukrainian husband over the internet in Kyiv. In that respect a Ukrainian website enabled two Ukrainians to meet that way despite they were both living in the same city. It was possible with the internet, I guess the internet itself can be a “marriage agency” too. It is the 21st Century after all.  :-\

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When in Rome, do as the Romans do.

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Offline SmartJAzzInOdessa

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Re: Any differences between Ukrainian and Russian women?
« Reply #18 on: 20:27 24-Feb-2008 »
Yep, I'm all for virtual networking, however, I'm not for catalogs of women.  I know people who have worked for these agencies, and who have participated in their services.  They have a set of translators on hand, who translate the letters, which means that something could be easily changed, and as I've heard, often is.  I've also known a few girls who came to America through such companies, and many of them came here not knowing a lick of English.  Now how can two people continue a relationship not even knowing a common language?  There is a fine line between healthy internet dating sites and dirty marriage agencies.  I'm all for internet dating sites, but I'm not for greedy business men exploiting language barriers, the population difference in Ukraine/Russia, or the shady transactions that go on there.  Can you really put marriage agencies on the same map as eharmony.com and such sites?  One is a social network, one is a catalog.  Let's also not forget about the underlying intentions of many of those women... that is, to gain access to a Western country.  Come on, how many 19 year olds are really keeping their romantic options open for people up to 60 years old, and not have different motives?  And let's also not forget that many of the men (not all) are those men who have issues of their own to deal with and can't find a girl in their own country, and many of these problems (which could be abuse, anger, financial, or fidelity issues) won't appear until after that girl is already in another country.  The two aren't even comparable....
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Offline Claus

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Re: Any differences between Ukrainian and Russian women?
« Reply #19 on: 20:35 24-Feb-2008 »
Yep Ray

you outline a lot of the issues and problems very well.
However - what's new here, except the technology?  ;)
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Offline SilverBullet

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Re: Any differences between Ukrainian and Russian women?
« Reply #20 on: 21:26 24-Feb-2008 »
Ray, I agree but remember that dating sites are also catalogs of men and women. People post their photo, their age, what they are looking for etc. It is like a “shopping” site looking from one point of view for both men and women but on the other side an efficient way to meet. The advantage is that you can learn something about the other person first. When you meet someone in a bar or a restaurant you don’t know anything else than you see.

The marriage agencies are a business for what it is worth. It is not the girls who say that they are interested in men 21 – 60 years, but often the agencies placing this without the girls knowledge in order to get many letters and interest. More correspondence to translate and paid meetings for the interpreters. If someone wants to move to another country, one need to know the language first. If not someone can get very lonely or too dependent on another person. As for eHarmony, that is also just another catalog. They have not fair rules since they favor men. An American girl I know used the service and she told me that she had to answer all the letters from men, regardless if the man expressing an interest was interesting for her or not. Men did not have to answer letters from women on this site in the same manner.

I hope that women in Ukraine understand and realize that one should only marry a foreign man for the right reasons. Otherwise it is not worth it. I have visited many countries and Ukraine and Russia are good countries. Sometimes it takes people from other countries to see this. I have visited Egypt, Turkey and the UAE with my Ukrainian woman and she told my that she could never live in any of those countries and enjoyed being back in Kyiv after a few weeks of vacation. Those countries are nice to visit but not to live in. They have different and strickt religon and are poor countries for regular people living there. Ukraine is much better. 

Material wealth is not the most important in life. There are women in any country that marry for money. In America we have a good example, Ann Nicole Smith, a girl who recently died of a deadly mixture of drugs, who married in her early twenty’s a Texas billionaire at 80 years old or so. She was a westerner and didn’t have to marry to move to another country, she just married for a lot of money.

As for people with a shady past and various problems, that can be found many places in cyberspace as well as anywhere else in life.

For someone studying psychology, what do fellow students and teachers say about all the marriage agencies in Ukraine? How is it explained that they can exist? What are the opinions about this? The web site for the American Embassy in Kyiv is warning people about the marriage agencies based on so many fraud cases in the past. 

Still there are many happy couples to who have meet via such services too.  :)
В чужо́й монасты́рь со свои́м уста́вом не хо́дят.
When in Rome, do as the Romans do.

Век живи́ — век учи́сь.
Live and learn.

ecocks

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Re: For what it is worth
« Reply #21 on: 21:56 24-Feb-2008 »
I think many of these "marriage agencies" are really dating sites.  Granted they don't have the slick ad copywriters that Yahoo Personals, AOL, eHarmony and others use but it really amounts to the same thing. Personally, I think anyone who looks for a "bride" in a catalog is a bit off their nut to begin with.  I know a couple of guys who have met and married within 2-3 weeks of meeting someone online back in the states.  One is still married, the other regrets it.  Not much different than meeting in a bar and being stupid IMO.

As Mizzus Gump says, "Stupid is as stupid does."
« Last Edit: 22:57 24-Feb-2008 by ecocks »

Offline SmartJAzzInOdessa

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Re: Any differences between Ukrainian and Russian women?
« Reply #22 on: 22:58 24-Feb-2008 »
Yep, you are completely right about the presence of these things in every country, which are simply manifested through different mediums. 

Concerning your question for psych majors, I can't answer it from a psych point of view, but in addition to literature, I also study anthropology and I would say that these agencies exist because of economic reasons, as well as because of the female-male ratio in the CIS countries.  The most common and oldest reason for marriage is economic security as well as gaining kinship ties with another family.  Humans are social creatures and need/want a support system, whether emotionally or economically.  The idea of "love" is only about 500 years old, although most anthropologists agree that it exists, but explain it in different terms.  They do this when looking at couples that marry through mutual consent, and those that marriage by means of arrangement.  First off, arranged marriages typically last longer due to the fact that older members of society can look upon the two people and see divergences/convergences, and they don't get confused with hormones.  :-)  But the coital rate is interesting... In the consentual marriage, the coital rate (For those who aren't native speakers, this is just a fancy term that human sciences gives to the rate of intercourse) starts very high and slowly tapers off.  In the arranged marriage, the coital rate is extremely low and then begins to gradually build.  This suggests that love is real and is developed by time and familiarity.  Now the interesting thing about marriage agencies is that they work a bit counter-productively, well, when a fiancee is coming to America.  A woman or man who doesn't know English is going to be an economic burden, and even then, unfortunately prejudice often keeps people with CIS education working the worst jobs, unless it's IT.  That is, that usually Russian and Ukrainian immigrants either start a business here, or go to college again.  Now, exceptional English skills are necessary for both of these.  Therefore, there is an interesting paradox arising... The moving foreigner has achieved an economic upgrade (in most cases), but the person visiting the agencies gets almost no immediate (or shortly achieved) economic benefit from this, especially if this is in America, where single-income families pretty much don't exist anymore.  However, they keep these sites up because these men aren't looking because of the economics, but because of the innate social instinct of humans.  But this system is extremely bad for the CIS countries, considering that they are some of the very few countries in the world that have decreasing populations.  Not only are they losing a citizen, but they are losing, in essence, women, the birthgivers.  Anthropologically speaking, men go to war because one man in a world full of ten million women could save the human race, but one women with ten million men only birth one child every year.  So although people don't like to think about divorce, many children are not being born now because of the women leaving the country that would have married and had children.  That is, that children, a lot of times, are born acorss multiple marriages, and this chance is now less.  Ideal?  Nope.  But that's my theory, anyway.  :-) 

Ed - Concerning the difference between the agencies and eHarmony, etc. the communication on those sites isn't filtered by translators, and the personal information about the users is filled in only by the users.  The agencies have too much control over the communication, and in general, over the user's life.  Who's to say that some messages don't even get to the right user because a translator feels that the message would be better for someone else, etc.  But no, I'm not against meeting people in the internet, as my current interest and I met through Skype; I was studying Russian, and she was studying English.  I'm all for it, but there are heaps of ways to go about social networking in the internet.  Maybe some people don't have the net, name one person that doesn't have a friend that has the internet.  And I've also noticed that a lot of employers allow their employees to use things like Skype, ICQ, etc. while at work, especially in the IT field, and Ukraine is known for IT workers. 

Speaking of the Gumps, perhaps the most famous quote from that movie could also be used to describe the agencies, "Life is like a box chocolates - you never know what you're going to get."  :-D
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ecocks

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Re: Any differences between Ukrainian and Russian women?
« Reply #23 on: 23:27 24-Feb-2008 »
They are not all filtered through translators though.  That is an over-generalization.  I dated a half dozen off of one site when I first arrived and I know it wasn't setup like that.  From talking with other expats and the women, I have heard of no sites that were working that way although there could certainly be some.  I even talked with one owner of a famous website and am confident that a percentage of them are legitimate operations designed to facilitate international introductions.  There are optional services, some for a fee, while others appear to be more of an honest attempt to help many of the women get started. 

You appear to be correct about the cultural differences though.  I believe it was not routine but certainly a bit more common to marry for financial, stability and security reasons in this region.  I remember one woman telling me she married to avoid being sent to Kazahkistan for her job assignment and she described it as what we back in the states would say was a "marriage of convenience."  A student described to me that her second husband (Ukrainian) was basically selected by her mother from among the single, more settled men in her hometown.  While anecdotal, I have heard this enough that I believe it to be generally true.

But again, while some of them refer to themselves as marriage agencies, I regard them as mainly dating sites.  Just a bit less sophisticated than their western counterparts.  Just as with the western ones, the women appear to have greater or lesser degrees of hopnesty, selectivity, varying goals for their futures and so on based upon their personal objectives (and morals).  That is no worse (or better) than the gal who catches your eye with her figure or enthusiasm  across the smoky barroom floor in your hometown.  If anyone is dumb enough to buy a bride from a catalopg picture, then, "Let the buyer beware!"

Offline SmartJAzzInOdessa

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Re: Any differences between Ukrainian and Russian women?
« Reply #24 on: 01:33 25-Feb-2008 »
I can agree that perhaps there are some sites that function more as dating sites, but I can't agree that these are counterparts to the Yahoo Personals, or Eharmony, because there are other Russian sites that offer the exact same services, like Знакомства on mail.ru, but one searches "Russian dating sites," one sees the words "Russian Brides" on almost every link, which makes all the difference.  The calling them "brides," they are labeling their women as commodities - brides.  In addition, I can't tell you how many of them, as I look now, say something like "our women are honest and looking for a better life."  Why should one need to even advertise the integrity of his/her company?  Another huge difference in the marriage agencies and the dating sites is that marriage agencies specifically target foreigners, instead of men/women on the homefront.  In fact, most of those sites don't even have links to Russian/Ukrainian translations.  Another huge difference, at least with some of the sites, is that many of those sites make you pay a flat fee for finding your "soul mate" within a 10-day period.  The fact that these sites are typically only available in English, that they have full-time interpreters and translators, that most of them have at least one immigration attorney on staff, that they usually contain a link for "basic Russian," etc. all imply that these sites are not at all set up like dating sites.  How can a couple even date if they live in different countries?  Perhaps some of the girls look at these like dating sites, but the companies' motives are definitely not that of Eharmony or Yahoo Personals, who only seek to give room for introductions... Oh no, these agencies are looking for something far more sordid and inhumane.  To have a site for the purpose of meeting others with possible prospects in the future is one thing, while advertising brides is another.  IMHO.  :-)

-Ray
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ecocks

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Re: Any differences between Ukrainian and Russian women?
« Reply #25 on: 05:44 25-Feb-2008 »
Well, must be looking at different sites and maybe with a different viewpoint as well. 


Offline P-N

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Re: Any differences between Ukrainian and Russian women?
« Reply #26 on: 07:25 25-Feb-2008 »
I have no objection to any LEGAL means of meeting anyone, internet or otherwsie and again it relates soley to an individuals desire and requirements and supply and demand as in any business.

When I lived in Moscow, I remember when "speed-dating" first arrived and was discussed much on the ExpatRU site at the time.  (I also remember Mattlocks, Packman and others from that site who now post in here).  At the time we generally agreed that it would be a failure in Mosocw and thus it turned out to be.  Is it any more morally wrong than the internet, personaly I think not. 

I have no moral judgement to make about how anyone meets anyone as long as they all treat each other like human beings.

My brother (married only once and still married after 8 years in the UK) refers to marriage as legalised prostitution, as although no doubt love exists, both he and his wife also recognised the financial stability it brought them.

The human desire for other stable human contact must surely go way back to time immemorial when, to survive, "hunting in packs" with a common goal was the only altimatley successful method. Hence tribes would come to fruision and then nations (eventually).  This is obviously very simplistic with regard to the forming of nations as geography etc. etc. also provided natural barriers in many cases.

In summary, to each their own and however you meet "Mr or Mrs Right" it is imaterial..........the fact is you met them!  :)
"When surrounded by the dark void of the willfully blind, it does not excuse those that are a spark of light their duty to shine" - Me

Offline SilverBullet

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This is some old news now but it was intersting to see that the daughter of now Prime Minister Julia Tymoshenko decided to marry a much older foreigner while she was studying in London. There is a 11 year age difference between the two since Evhenya Tymoshenko was 25-years old when she married the 36-year-old Sean Carr in at the Vydubych monastery in Kyiv. Carr, who was earlier an Anglican, was even baptized in one of Kyiv churches.

So the theory doesn't work in this case. There was no social or economic benefits for Evhenya Tymoshenko to marry someone like that since Carr was a small / unknown rock artist in England, had been married before, had a child from the prior marriage, was much older and was not a rich man by any means. Evhenya Tymoshenko on the other side was the closest you can get to "royalty" in Ukraine, and her choice of husband was probably not her mother's first choice. I was surprised she didn't marry a Ukrainian. Her husband even moved to Kyiv with his dogs and a Harley Davidson. 

What makes it a little bit sad is that her new husband has a history of domestic abuse from his prior marriage per court records from the UK. I trust the security force of his new mother-inlaw will take care of him if he misbehaves again :-\  The only person who could gain in economic terms in this marriage was the foreign man, while the upside for the Ukrainian lady was not there at all by such measure ments. Perhaps it just shows that anything is possible in true love.

SB 

 
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Offline P-N

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This is some old news now but it was intersting to see that the daughter of now Prime Minister Julia Tymoshenko decided to marry a much older foreigner while she was studying in London. There is a 11 year age difference between the two since Evhenya Tymoshenko was 25-years old when she married the 36-year-old Sean Carr in at the Vydubych monastery in Kyiv. Carr, who was earlier an Anglican, was even baptized in one of Kyiv churches.

So the theory doesn't work in this case. There was no social or economic benefits for Evhenya Tymoshenko to marry someone like that since Carr was a small / unknown rock artist in England, had been married before, had a child from the prior marriage, was much older and was not a rich man by any means. Evhenya Tymoshenko on the other side was the closest you can get to "royalty" in Ukraine, and her choice of husband was probably not her mother's first choice. I was surprised she didn't marry a Ukrainian. Her husband even moved to Kyiv with his dogs and a Harley Davidson. 

What makes it a little bit sad is that her new husband has a history of domestic abuse from his prior marriage per court records from the UK. I trust the security force of his new mother-inlaw will take care of him if he misbehaves again :-\  The only person who could gain in economic terms in this marriage was the foreign man, while the upside for the Ukrainian lady was not there at all by such measure ments. Perhaps it just shows that anything is possible in true love.

SB 

 

SB,

I met my good lady in Moscow, despite she is from Ukraine.  Although I may own a business or two, I would not class myself as rich.  My good lady, however, was very well accommodated for by the former USSR as she was unbeaten sword fencing champion for 7 years and certainly as far as "tactile" wealth went with regards to property, cash in the bank etc the former USSR looked after certainly this champion.  (She is sometimes still recognised in the street in Moscow but not here which I find strange). ???  I maybe worth a few $ on paper but she didn't know it when we met, and I decidied to relocate to Moscow to be with her (and latterly to Odessa where all her family live) to be with her. 

I have 2 children from a previous marriage, also I am 9 years older than the wife but I am happy to say I do not have the inclination to beat a woman.

Although independantly I have not benefitted from her wealth, and she from mine, as with all marriage (unless a pre-nup is in place) we have both mutually gained in many ways (not only financially).

I would therefore have to agree that anything IS possible with true love  :) ;D 8)

Can't say the wife is royalty though, even if she is Queen in our home  ::) but there are a few similarities to the above story I guess.
« Last Edit: 08:57 25-Feb-2008 by Pompey-Nik »
"When surrounded by the dark void of the willfully blind, it does not excuse those that are a spark of light their duty to shine" - Me

Offline SilverBullet

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Re: Any differences between Ukrainian and Russian women?
« Reply #29 on: 08:57 25-Feb-2008 »
That was good to hear. I was just trying to make the case that many Ukrainian or Russian women are not fortune seekers at all, they just want to find a good husband. There is a misconception that they just want to leave Ukraine. Expats who decide to settle down with a Russian or Ukrainian wife in their home country are good examples too.  :)
В чужо́й монасты́рь со свои́м уста́вом не хо́дят.
When in Rome, do as the Romans do.

Век живи́ — век учи́сь.
Live and learn.