Author Topic: Any differences between Ukrainian and Russian women?  (Read 27155 times)

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Offline P-N

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Re: Any differences between Ukrainian and Russian women?
« Reply #30 on: 09:02 25-Feb-2008 »
That was good to hear. I was just trying to make the case that many Ukrainian or Russian women are not fortune seekers at all, they just want to find a good husband. There is a misconception that they just want to leave Ukraine. Expats who decide to settle down with a Russian or Ukrainian wife in their home country are good examples too.  :)

I absolutely agree with you.  My wife likes England alot, but she does not want to live there.  For certain she has no interest in getting a GB Passport.  I know there will always be those who see marriage as a way out of whatever difficulties they percieve or genuinely have, but Ukraine for certain is getting less and less like that in my view.  Saying that it is now easier for a Ukraine to come and go from the country.  Still someway to go to enjoy the ease and freedon with which you and I do it, but definately much, much easier than it was. :)
"When surrounded by the dark void of the willfully blind, it does not excuse those that are a spark of light their duty to shine" - Me

Offline SmartJAzzInOdessa

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Re: Any differences between Ukrainian and Russian women?
« Reply #31 on: 09:29 25-Feb-2008 »
I have been misunderstood... Of course not all Ukrainians want to move to Western countries.  And I'm not sure how you met your wives, but again, I was only explaining the existence of marriage agencies that target Westerners as their main audience.  As I mentioned, a lot of men living in those countries (I'm not referring to expats) a lot of times are searching for women in other places because of issues on the homefront.  This is also why there have been some changes in laws concerning these agencies and doing background checks, so in that lies the proof.  But just as those men are searching because of problems on the homefront, the women are too, and it is not at all unheard for a "mail-order bride" to leave the husband after the trail period, at which point she can receive a permanent immigration visa.  Of course there are exceptions to these rules... But let's face it... An 18-year-old has no reason to search those sites looking for men in other countries unless there are motives and desires to live in that country... Hell, an 18-year-old has so much to go through after just finishing school and moving to a university setting.  And let's also not forget the financial requirements to bring a foreign bride to one's homeland... It requires someone who is already settled in a career and financially stable, in other words... not 18, or 19, or 20... And as far as marrying an Englishman, of course there can be much to be said about that from a Marxist point of view.  Correct me if I'm wrong, Englishmen, but your healthcare is much better than that of Ukraine, and free.  I of course don't know from personal experience, but I've seen Michael Moore's Sicko and have spoken with many from there, but this means nothing.  England also has 2.7% inflation rate, as opposed to Ukraine's near-hyperinflation rate that reached 17% in 2007.  Regardless of social status, everyone in Ukraine is losing money, if they aren't keeping it in banks.  There are plenty of other Marxist ways to explain this, but this is one of the biggest.  Anyways, for every issue in the world, there are many different theoretical paradigms that can explain it, each contradicting the other.  :-)  That's the beauty in human sciences! :-)  Anyways, the girls are on there because they want to be, the men are happy to meet them, someone's making money from it, and well, let them do continue, and then deal with the consequences later on, whether good or bad. :-)
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Offline P-N

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Re: Any differences between Ukrainian and Russian women?
« Reply #32 on: 10:09 25-Feb-2008 »
I have been misunderstood... Of course not all Ukrainians want to move to Western countries.  And I'm not sure how you met your wives, but again, I was only explaining the existence of marriage agencies that target Westerners as their main audience.  As I mentioned, a lot of men living in those countries (I'm not referring to expats) a lot of times are searching for women in other places because of issues on the homefront.  This is also why there have been some changes in laws concerning these agencies and doing background checks, so in that lies the proof.  But just as those men are searching because of problems on the homefront, the women are too, and it is not at all unheard for a "mail-order bride" to leave the husband after the trail period, at which point she can receive a permanent immigration visa.  Of course there are exceptions to these rules... But let's face it... An 18-year-old has no reason to search those sites looking for men in other countries unless there are motives and desires to live in that country... Hell, an 18-year-old has so much to go through after just finishing school and moving to a university setting.  And let's also not forget the financial requirements to bring a foreign bride to one's homeland... It requires someone who is already settled in a career and financially stable, in other words... not 18, or 19, or 20... And as far as marrying an Englishman, of course there can be much to be said about that from a Marxist point of view.  Correct me if I'm wrong, Englishmen, but your healthcare is much better than that of Ukraine, and free.  I of course don't know from personal experience, but I've seen Michael Moore's Sicko and have spoken with many from there, but this means nothing.  England also has 2.7% inflation rate, as opposed to Ukraine's near-hyperinflation rate that reached 17% in 2007.  Regardless of social status, everyone in Ukraine is losing money, if they aren't keeping it in banks.  There are plenty of other Marxist ways to explain this, but this is one of the biggest.  Anyways, for every issue in the world, there are many different theoretical paradigms that can explain it, each contradicting the other.  :-)  That's the beauty in human sciences! :-)  Anyways, the girls are on there because they want to be, the men are happy to meet them, someone's making money from it, and well, let them do continue, and then deal with the consequences later on, whether good or bad. :-)

Yes, the English health service is free, but so is the Ukraine Health Service to Ukraines and those nationals with which respective governments have reciprical agreements.  This is definately a fact (as I called the brother-in-law who is a surgeon in one of Odessa's biggest hospitals) before posting.  Yes it is true that if you want to jump the que a few Gr will do it, but that is no different to the private medical care you can buy in the UK in essence.  Granted there maybe a moral difference but in practice it is only a reflection of the two tier system in the UK if you want to spend your money avoiding the Health Service waiting lists.

As for hyperinflation, the UK has had a democracy for a very long time and a reasonably well run ecconomy since the mid 1970's (when it all went horribly wrong!)  Ukraine will get to grips with it and get it down to a sustainable level in due time as Poland did and as the likes of all other emerging democracies have to.

It is also understandable that many still keep their money "under the bed" (and possibly lose money by way of bank interest) as the tax system is poorly managed, bank collapses are still remembered when many lost money when encouraged to put it in the bank and as personal cheques do not exist, Matercard and Visa are the only alternative to cash.  This coupled with the artificially managed UDS being constantly at 5.05 despite the US ecconomy catching a cold recently and all other currencies going up and down like a yoyo in comparison, even the less than intelligent in society may consider if 5.05 will be artificially maintained then keeping their money in cash compaired to the chance of losing it in another bank collapse may be beneficial to them.

As always theories are fine but Ukraine seems to like pragmatism, as one Ukraine friend said to me not long ago, if my water pipes leak, I need someone who can fix it, not someone with a university degree who can write 5 pages of Health and Safety issues on working with hot metal.

Agreed I cannot think of any reason for an 18-20 year old looking for marriage (let alone outside their normal country of residence) unless there are specific drivers to do so, but like you say it's not my problem and not my consequences to deal with  :)
"When surrounded by the dark void of the willfully blind, it does not excuse those that are a spark of light their duty to shine" - Me

Offline SmartJAzzInOdessa

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Re: Any differences between Ukrainian and Russian women?
« Reply #33 on: 11:26 25-Feb-2008 »
Yes, it is free in Ukraine as well, but the quality is much worse, and the life expectancy, which has typically been 10 years or more higher than in Ukraine, hints to this.  About hyperinflation... Well, we'll see where it goes.  It was only 12% last year, and five percent is a huge increase.  So as of right now there seem to be no signs of economic improvement.  It's hard to build an economy off of wheat, when you are dependant on other countries for gas and oil... As far as theories are concerned, we're discussing society :-)  Who else is going to fix this leaky pipe, if not a theorist?  Who would have come up with democracy, communism, capitolism, socialism, liberalism, psychology, etc.  ;-)  Hence, human sciences, which is grounded in theory.  And, everyone is a theorist, whether he calls himself one or not.  My point - One can easily find economic incentives behind this marriage.  That's for sure.  But there's nothing wrong with that... Again, economics has always been and always will be the main reason for marriage.  Love is a very, very, very young idea, though I'm not discounting it.  It's a combination of both, IMHO.
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ecocks

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Re: Any differences between Ukrainian and Russian women?
« Reply #34 on: 12:24 25-Feb-2008 »
I have been repeatedly asked by western guys how to avoid the scammers.  I always have advised them to tell their dates they are planning on living here for a few years and maybe another couple of years in Korea or China.  Their reaction ought to give you a couple of clues as to whether it's love or infatuation with your passport/wallet.

While some "scamming" or scheming undoubtedly occurs, I believe the success rate differs little from so-called "normal" marriage success rates for the same reasons.  What is a "normal" marriage anyway?  Does it mean you found your wife on the doorstep of a convent or attending bible study classes?  What really?  With divorce rates approaching 45-50%, why should something like this be any better statistically?  The divorce rate here is pretty damned high and young widows are a bit more common than in the states except maybe for the Vietnam War period.

Death rates are high but life expectancy seems to be climbing.  As affluence grows, quality alternative healthcare operations are growing as well.  My wife and I go to American Medical Center which is as close as I have seen to American quality health care that I am accustomed to.  She seems to be continually surprised at the service, concern, competence and attitude she receives from the staff there.  I have heard too many bad stories from the Ukraine system and a couple of the other private operations.

Offline SilverBullet

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Re: Any differences between Ukrainian and Russian women?
« Reply #35 on: 21:26 25-Feb-2008 »
Ed, another difference compared to the US or the EU is that women in general marry at a very young age in Ukraine. Most marry before they are 25 and if you are older the locals think there must be something wrong with the person. I have never seen so many young women have children so early either. It is not unusual to be married at 21 and already have children.   

What can be said to be wrong with Ukraine is the corruption and persistent aviodance of paying taxes. How can you expect excellent health care when people and companies don't want to pay fair taxes? There is the concept of "offical pay" and cash payment under the table. Real estate transactions reported below the real sales price etc. Ukraine is a country with rich natural resources and a highley educated work force, but corruption remains the problem robbing the state for much needed income to provide for its citizens. It is the same situation in Russia too and even the Kremlin-based midget recently acknowledged in an intervju with western journalists that it is an area he had not been able to make any progress in during his presidency. S.B.
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Offline SmartJAzzInOdessa

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Re: Any differences between Ukrainian and Russian women?
« Reply #36 on: 21:45 25-Feb-2008 »
This can also be explained economically.  :-)  For example, Ira, my girls in Ukraine, has a master's degree in a technical field, but earns less than $200 a month, which hardly even covers the cost of a flat in Ukraine.  This is the difference between a collectivist society (and corruption also exists because of the collectivist nature of Ukraine and CIS countries), and an individualist society. 
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Offline P-N

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Re: Any differences between Ukrainian and Russian women?
« Reply #37 on: 08:26 26-Feb-2008 »
Ed, another difference compared to the US or the EU is that women in general marry at a very young age in Ukraine. Most marry before they are 25 and if you are older the locals think there must be something wrong with the person. I have never seen so many young women have children so early either. It is not unusual to be married at 21 and already have children.   

What can be said to be wrong with Ukraine is the corruption and persistent aviodance of paying taxes. How can you expect excellent health care when people and companies don't want to pay fair taxes? There is the concept of "offical pay" and cash payment under the table. Real estate transactions reported below the real sales price etc. Ukraine is a country with rich natural resources and a highley educated work force, but corruption remains the problem robbing the state for much needed income to provide for its citizens. It is the same situation in Russia too and even the Kremlin-based midget recently acknowledged in an intervju with western journalists that it is an area he had not been able to make any progress in during his presidency. S.B.

100% concur SB.  It is not only Ukraine women who marry early either.  One of my Moldovan guys (23 years old) has recently got married to a Moldovan girl who has just turned 18.  I stated that it is definately outside the norm in the UK (for the girl I mean) but he told me it was common in Moldova also for many women to be married at 18 or 19 years old.  He knows I have 2 daughters 20 and 18 and I told him I don't expect them to be married before they are 24, 25 years old because they want to finish university and have a few years of a career behind them before they took such a step (and therefore some financial independence).  He viewed this as a very strange concept.

I can only therefore put it down (not to individual desires) but the fact that in Ukraine and Moldova (and probably Belarussia and Georgia) that a "career" for a woman is still some distance behind the EU and USA expectations and the view of the man being the "bread-winner" for want of a better expression, is still expected.  Obviously this is not true in all walks of life (look at Ukraines current PM and several ministers) but it still seems to be more generally accepted as the way to go.

As western influence expands in the former USSR and eventually the virgin democracies get to grips with the historical and social "hangovers" they have been left with during the time of the USSR, it will be interesting to see if this trend remains constant or declines.

As for real estate tax avoidance during purchase, I have no first hand experience of under reporting of price to avoid taxation (although I am certain that it happens), but I know for a FACT that as many of the "agents" even in the biggest national firms will offer to carry out the transaction on a personal basis (obviously in cash as all real estate transactions here take place in cash) for 50% of what the company "commision" would be.  Then the company could not declare the cash sum anyway (even if it wanted to) for tax purposes as they are unaware that an employee has "renegotiated" everything behind their back for personal gain not corporate gain.  These people obviously never report such transactions, the buyers pay 50% less commision and the sellers still get the price they are asking for.  This situation is compounded by the fact that even the biggest real estate companies do not even work regionally but by individual office so policing their employees activities is almost impossible as they are all fighting each other on an office by office basis let alone region or nationally.

I imagine the Inland Reveune or IRS here have the same powers as in our respective native countries, but no doubt they too are underpaid and a few $ will keep an investigating official "quiet" with respect to these activities not only in real estate but throughout every other walk of life here.

To raise the revenues to better place education, health etc at some point the powers that be will have to substancially increase the incomes of the police, doctors, dentists, judges, tax collectors, customs (the list goes on ad-nauseum) and afterwards publically jail those who take bribes to the point whereby taking a bribe is no longer financially worth it in the long run.  This of course takes money (and a lot of it) as well as the public supporting the initiative and being prepared to abide by the law and not offer "incentives" to look the other way.   I would suggest the latter is much much harder to do.
"When surrounded by the dark void of the willfully blind, it does not excuse those that are a spark of light their duty to shine" - Me

ecocks

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Re: Any differences between Ukrainian and Russian women?
« Reply #38 on: 11:12 26-Feb-2008 »
Not sure what marrying age has to do with this exactly.  It seems (to me) to be more of a symptom than a cause.   More to the point is the overall imbalance of the sexes, still roughly 85 men for every 100 women, especially in the over-30 age group.  Undoubtedly, the reality of age versus income and security plays a bigger part in this economy than it does in a more stable, open one like England or the US.   A wider range of age is certainly more common in this area of the world.  I don't know about Nik's experience (since he and his wife have the same age difference as my wife and I do) but I hear all the time from western guys, «why didn't you snag a younger woman?» and even my wife/sisters-in-law occasionally still question why I am not interested in younger women.   When asked by the guys, I find the question a bit insulting and indicating several character traits/psychoses and insecurities of the questioner.

There are so many problems, the REAL question is, «where do you start trying to interrupt the cycle to effect a long-term improvement?»

I see that the younger generation is changing and adapting more rapidly to the transitions occuring.  Common, since youth is still in «training mode» and naturally is more flexible and accepting of change.  One interesting area to watch involves their attitude towards continuing education and training.  The concept here is that education is continuous until time to work, then it is over.  Setting aside for a moment the implication of leaving out an entire generation (or two) from the educational process, the students are shocked to learn how difficult it is to go straight from the bachelor's degree to seeking an MBA.  Most schools expect a minimum of 2 years of professional work experience AFTER graduation.  Some give preference to those with 5 years and higher.  My step-son dearly wants an American MBA but has become despondent that he will be expected to work for 2+ years before even applying for admission. He simply doesn't understand how he will ever be able to complete a program since he expects to be working, married and starting a family by age 25.  Stopping your career or even commiting to a part-time, night school program for three years is an alien thought in this area of the world. 

As for that set-aside group, I had a call yesterday from another teacher asking how to cope with increasing content demands for business training, NOT Business English development.  The middle generation wants the information but is unsure how to get it and only see their language teachers as an option.

I suspect the women will get a major headstart on advanced degrees due to their structure here.  The system subsidizes the mother for up to 6 years after the birth so, if the husband is working a decent job, the woman can easily go back to school in her mid-20's.  Considering their maternity leave policies here, I am surprised the birth rate isn't climbing faster. 

Offline P-N

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Re: Any differences between Ukrainian and Russian women?
« Reply #39 on: 12:00 26-Feb-2008 »
Not sure what marrying age has to do with this exactly.  It seems (to me) to be more of a symptom than a cause.   More to the point is the overall imbalance of the sexes, still roughly 85 men for every 100 women, especially in the over-30 age group.  Undoubtedly, the reality of age versus income and security plays a bigger part in this economy than it does in a more stable, open one like England or the US.   A wider range of age is certainly more common in this area of the world.  I don't know about Nik's experience (since he and his wife have the same age difference as my wife and I do) but I hear all the time from western guys, «why didn't you snag a younger woman?» and even my wife/sisters-in-law occasionally still question why I am not interested in younger women.   When asked by the guys, I find the question a bit insulting and indicating several character traits/psychoses and insecurities of the questioner.

There are so many problems, the REAL question is, «where do you start trying to interrupt the cycle to effect a long-term improvement?»

I see that the younger generation is changing and adapting more rapidly to the transitions occuring.  Common, since youth is still in «training mode» and naturally is more flexible and accepting of change.  One interesting area to watch involves their attitude towards continuing education and training.  The concept here is that education is continuous until time to work, then it is over.  Setting aside for a moment the implication of leaving out an entire generation (or two) from the educational process, the students are shocked to learn how difficult it is to go straight from the bachelor's degree to seeking an MBA.  Most schools expect a minimum of 2 years of professional work experience AFTER graduation.  Some give preference to those with 5 years and higher.  My step-son dearly wants an American MBA but has become despondent that he will be expected to work for 2+ years before even applying for admission. He simply doesn't understand how he will ever be able to complete a program since he expects to be working, married and starting a family by age 25.  Stopping your career or even commiting to a part-time, night school program for three years is an alien thought in this area of the world. 

As for that set-aside group, I had a call yesterday from another teacher asking how to cope with increasing content demands for business training, NOT Business English development.  The middle generation wants the information but is unsure how to get it and only see their language teachers as an option.

I suspect the women will get a major headstart on advanced degrees due to their structure here.  The system subsidizes the mother for up to 6 years after the birth so, if the husband is working a decent job, the woman can easily go back to school in her mid-20's.  Considering their maternity leave policies here, I am surprised the birth rate isn't climbing faster. 

An interesting point about your step-son becoming despondent.  Don't know if you read the thread I posted yesterday about distance learning degrees (as I have an employee interested) during which I found some (probable although I don't know for sure) scam about life experience degrees.  Having considered it a little further there can be little distinction between those with, for example, 20 years experience in retail running a successful business but not having any "letters" after their name and obtaining such a degree (if they actually exist) and someone who is given an "honourary degree" by a university because they too have succeeded in their field of endevour (without a degree) and are then given one by a "recognised" provider.

Your step-son is looking at education from the perspective of the young and never employed (let alone CIS perspective).  As an employer (which obviously I am both here and in England) irrespective of a degree/MBA/PhD I would look for experience first, then the qualifications.  Depending on the specifics and dynamics of the company, the fact you hold a degree or MBA can be little more than a door opener to an interview.  Alternatively without one, the door may be closed firmly in your face, even if you are the best candidate for the job with the experience the employer requires.....in other words you don't even get through the papersift by the "Personnel Department".  (Don't get me started on Personnel Departments (including my own)).

I can only speak for my profession and as an employer.  In my profession, there are certain positions in which you are expected to have a degree, ie. structural engineering, civil engineering for example and it has certain implications on insurances which must be held should there ever be a claim against you etc.  However most of the graduates we take on are then "mentored" by guys with much experience, many of whom don't have the letters after their name but have worked they way up from the bottom over 20 - 25 years and know all there is to know (even more than me  ::) :o).  Who would you take, the boss of a "Fortune 500" company without letters after his name or a MBA with little or no experience?

Higher education is a ticket to ride, not the ride itself.  It maybe you have to stop and get another ticket if you go a certain way but as always with the young, they don't see it this way.  My daughters are no exception, expecting big $ when they graduate with no experience in the work place and no matter how much I tell them, there is no way of realigning their thought patterns.  Unfortunatley for both they will be in for a big shock soon.

It will remain to be seen if the young mothers here return to education, (as you say it is an alien thought in this part of the world) in the immediate term I very much doubt it because it is not what is expected.  As the western influence expands in the next 10 years or more then I would hope that it happens, but again in 10 years time will their (and society's) expections have changed sufficiently not to marry and have children so young in the first place?

As for more increasing demand for Business Training than Business English.....you going to start teaching Malsow's Hierachy Of Needs and the like as well Ed?   ;) :D

Maybe you should drop Mr the Kremlin-based midget a quick e-myther stating that Russia should also provide free higher education to mothers during their time away from work as well as the financial insentives offered.......he is after all worried about the drop in birth rate  ;) :D and the long term benefits to society would be immence.

It will be interesting to watch as time goes by.

As for exchanging my beloved for a "younger model", like you Ed, I ain't for changin'  :)
« Last Edit: 12:42 26-Feb-2008 by Pompey-Nik »
"When surrounded by the dark void of the willfully blind, it does not excuse those that are a spark of light their duty to shine" - Me

Offline SilverBullet

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Re: Any differences between Ukrainian and Russian women?
« Reply #40 on: 07:16 27-Feb-2008 »
A wider range of age is certainly more common in this area of the world.  I don't know about Nik's experience (since he and his wife have the same age difference as my wife and I do) but I hear all the time from western guys, «why didn't you snag a younger woman?» and even my wife/sisters-in-law occasionally still question why I am not interested in younger women.   When asked by the guys, I find the question a bit insulting and indicating several character traits/psychoses and insecurities of the questioner. 

I think the western guys you are refering to have lost their sense of reality. How long do they think a marriage will last if they marry someone half their age or more? They better have a bullet proof prenuptial because they might need it sooner than later  ::) They are just out of touch with reality  :o. Tey don't realize that preferences and priorities change by age. Can you imagine someone starting to plan his retirement while his miss is about to plan taking a second education in a new western country? It works better when the age difference is more within reasonable limits. I am not an expert myself though and I am sure there are some happy exceptions to this.  :-\ 
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Offline SilverBullet

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With CIS education in the USA - good jobs can be found
« Reply #41 on: 22:51 16-Mar-2008 »
A woman or man who doesn't know English is going to be an economic burden, and even then, unfortunately prejudice often keeps people with CIS education working the worst jobs, unless it's IT.  That is, that usually Russian and Ukrainian immigrants either start a business here, or go to college again.  Now, exceptional English skills are necessary for both of these.  Therefore, there is an interesting paradox arising... The moving foreigner has achieved an economic upgrade (in most cases), but the person visiting the agencies gets almost no immediate (or shortly achieved) economic benefit from this, especially if this is in America, where single-income families pretty much don't exist anymore.

Ray, you posted this a while ago but I wanted to comment on this. You are absolutely correct that when someone wants to move to a foreign country they need to learn the language. Without knowing the language it will be difficult to become integrated in a foreign country.

As for CIS education's value abroad, you should know that someone with medical education, dentist and nursing will be in high demand in the USA and do well as soon as they learn the language. IT of course will always be in demand, but so also engineering and mechanical. Ukrainian mechanics are know to be very good. Many decide to add a second degree in the USA in addition to their CIS education making it easier. Still if someone doesn't have a specific education and speak poorly English, it will be difficult to find a good job of course.

As for two income familes, your observation is true many places in major urban centra with expensive homes, but in less expensive areas like the Midwest, Texas, Oregon, etc. many can manage to live on one income. Most men who marry a foreigner are not doing it for economic motives but for love. A man will always have to support a wife as the case in many countries.  :)
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Век живи́ — век учи́сь.
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Offline AlexMc

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Re: Any differences between Ukrainian and Russian women?
« Reply #42 on: 13:02 17-Apr-2008 »
I have bought an interesting eBook "Finding a Ukrainian Bride" from a company calling itself Ukrainian Seduction.  Their e-mail is seduction@ukr.net

The book is awesome and great fun to read!

ecocks

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Re: Any differences between Ukrainian and Russian women?
« Reply #43 on: 14:51 17-Apr-2008 »
Most of us seem to have solved this problem already but maybe it will help some poor sod (*) who has trouble stumbling down the street, tripping over every crack in the sidewalk, falling down steps and walking into posts.

* -  ;D  Hey!  :o  How about that!?!    Huh!?!   :o   How many Americans EVER used the word "sod" in a sentence huh?   ???  Well, excepting those who do landscaping and gravedigging for a living at least......     :-\
« Last Edit: 15:07 17-Apr-2008 by ecocks »

Carlusha

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Re: Any differences between Ukrainian and Russian women?
« Reply #44 on: 15:04 17-Apr-2008 »
Most of us seem to have solved this problem already but maybe it will help some poor sod (*) who has toruble stumbling down the street, tripping over every crack in the sidewalk, falling down steps and walking into posts.

* -  ;D  Hey!  :o  How about that!?!    Huh!?!   :o   How many Americans EVER used the word "sod" in a sentence huh?   ???  Well, excepting those who do landscaping and gravedigging for a living at least......     :-\


Well, for me, Ed, your choice of phraseology is all due to your English ancestry kicking in when you have been humoured by some poor soul (aka sod) who needs hand holding when looking for arm candy.