Author Topic: A message from Timoshenko....  (Read 3323 times)

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Online David Rochlin

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Re: A message from Timoshenko....
« Reply #15 on: 09:19 03-Jan-2012 »
Most Westerners who want Tymoshenko out,want her out for the sake of Democracy in Ukraine, or at least a future of it.  Empathy for Tymoshenko, herself, is not very high.  She is more of a Bhutto, than she is an Aung San Su Kyii.

Bhutto was liked
.

I am going to stick with my analogy, that on the whole, Tymo has a great deal in common with the
late Pakistani pol:

http://www.nationmultimedia.com/home/How-popular-is-Benazir-Bhutto--30055980.html[/url]
« Last Edit: 09:22 03-Jan-2012 by David Rochlin »

Offline P-N

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Re: A message from Timoshenko....
« Reply #16 on: 11:13 03-Jan-2012 »
I think most westerners are soon going to forget about Ms Tymoshenko and Ukraine given the situation in an existing EU Member State named Hungary.

Any perception that Ukraine is backsliding on democracy, freedom of the press, independence of the courts, of the National Bank and all other necessarily independent pillars is going to be insignificant to what has occurred with effect from 1 January in Hungary when its amended Constitution came into force.

When the EU cannot control an EU Member State it is in no position to lecture a sovereign nation that is not in the EU.

Western eyes are soon going to look inwards at Hungary rather than outwards at Ukraine.

With effect from 01.01.12, any criticism of the government by the press in Hungary is illegal.  All the senior judiciary have been "retired" by manipulating the retirement age with new appointment due in the near future as per political nomination, the National Bank is now politically managed in nothing short of a "corporate raid", 3 previous government politicians are under investigation for misuse of office, one independent broadcaster has been closed down already and had its broadcasting frequencies reallocated to a government friendly broadcaster.

That is some going considering it is now only 03.01.12.

The new Constitution nominates the Florin as the only legal tender in Hungary despite EU Members agreeing to adopt the Euro when they agree to join the EU and meet the necessary parameters (and if ever there was a reason for Ukraine not to join the EU it is that it will automatically be expected to adopt the Euro when it met the parameters to do so), thus Hungary has constitutionally disregarded the agreement it made with the EU when it gained entry to the club.

It is quite possible, depending upon your interpretation of what is on paper, whether Hungary now meets the Copenhagen or Maastricht criteria and it is quite probable there is no mechanism to eject Hungary from the EU without the EU collapsing.

Sparring with Ukraine over Tymoshenko will very likely be kicked a long way down to road if the EU will not or cannot deal with events in Hungary swiftly.  Needless to say, I do not expect the EU to be able to deal with Hungary and thus any real politik or rhetoric towards Ukraine is going to seem at best duplicitous and at worst comical.

This being the case, we have to expect a shift in the EU position towards Ukraine.  That shift will be away from Ms Tymoshenko as a person and towards well run, open and honest elections in October, the reason cited being that it is a parliamentary election and her party will take part (and probably do quite well) and not the personality contest of a presidential election.

If a relatively fraud free election happens, the EU can hardly condemn an election in which her party does quite well.  (Technical violations will undoubtedly occur as they do in most nations and at most elections but that does not equal fraud necessarily.)

It will be interesting to watch this develop, but I suspect Ms Tymoshenko will slowly work her way down the list of EU priorities thanks in the most part to events in Hungary and the need for the EU to uphold its own principles within its own Members before lecturing others.

« Last Edit: 13:20 03-Jan-2012 by P-N »
"When surrounded by the dark void of the willfully blind, it does not excuse those that are a spark of light their duty to shine" - Me

Offline clanholmes

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Re: A message from Timoshenko....
« Reply #17 on: 13:55 03-Jan-2012 »
Most Westerners who want Tymoshenko out,want her out for the sake of Democracy in Ukraine, or at least a future of it.  Empathy for Tymoshenko, herself, is not very high.  She is more of a Bhutto, than she is an Aung San Su Kyii.

Bhutto was liked
.

I am going to stick with my analogy, that on the whole, Tymo has a great deal in common with the
late Pakistani pol:

http://www.nationmultimedia.com/home/How-popular-is-Benazir-Bhutto--30055980.html[/url]

Her husband destroyed her legacy. He is corrupt and a thief.. Not her. At the time of her murder she was extremely popular.
I know nothing except the fact of my ignorance.
Socrates

Read, but not write

Offline clanholmes

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Re: A message from Timoshenko....
« Reply #18 on: 14:03 03-Jan-2012 »
Nick, your logic is flawed in that you think the EU is consistent and rational. Besides the Americans, they are biggest bunch of hypocrites. 
West will use this based upon their mood. If they are happy with Ukraine, then it will not be mentioned. If they are unhappy, they will bring it up every single time.
They used to condemn China and its Human Rights, but since they need money from China, China is doing "better" with Human Rights.
She will be used as a tool.

I think most westerners are soon going to forget about Ms Tymoshenko and Ukraine given the situation in an existing EU Member State named Hungary.

Any perception that Ukraine is backsliding on democracy, freedom of the press, independence of the courts, of the National Bank and all other necessarily independent pillars is going to be insignificant to what has occurred with effect from 1 January in Hungary when its amended Constitution came into force.

When the EU cannot control an EU Member State it is in no position to lecture a sovereign nation that is not in the EU.

Western eyes are soon going to look inwards at Hungary rather than outwards at Ukraine.

With effect from 01.01.12, any criticism of the government by the press in Hungary is illegal.  All the senior judiciary have been "retired" by manipulating the retirement age with new appointment due in the near future as per political nomination, the National Bank is now politically managed in nothing short of a "corporate raid", 3 previous government politicians are under investigation for misuse of office, one independent broadcaster has been closed down already and had its broadcasting frequencies reallocated to a government friendly broadcaster.

That is some going considering it is now only 03.01.12.

The new Constitution nominates the Florin as the only legal tender in Hungary despite EU Members agreeing to adopt the Euro when they agree to join the EU and meet the necessary parameters (and if ever there was a reason for Ukraine not to join the EU it is that it will automatically be expected to adopt the Euro when it met the parameters to do so), thus Hungary has constitutionally disregarded the agreement it made with the EU when it gained entry to the club.

It is quite possible, depending upon your interpretation of what is on paper, whether Hungary now meets the Copenhagen or Maastricht criteria and it is quite probable there is no mechanism to eject Hungary from the EU without the EU collapsing.

Sparring with Ukraine over Tymoshenko will very likely be kicked a long way down to road if the EU will not or cannot deal with events in Hungary swiftly.  Needless to say, I do not expect the EU to be able to deal with Hungary and thus any real politik or rhetoric towards Ukraine is going to seem at best duplicitous and at worst comical.

This being the case, we have to expect a shift in the EU position towards Ukraine.  That shift will be away from Ms Tymoshenko as a person and towards well run, open and honest elections in October, the reason cited being that it is a parliamentary election and her party will take part (and probably do quite well) and not the personality contest of a presidential election.

If a relatively fraud free election happens, the EU can hardly condemn an election in which her party does quite well.  (Technical violations will undoubtedly occur as they do in most nations and at most elections but that does not equal fraud necessarily.)

It will be interesting to watch this develop, but I suspect Ms Tymoshenko will slowly work her way down the list of EU priorities thanks in the most part to events in Hungary and the need for the EU to uphold its own principles within its own Members before lecturing others.
I know nothing except the fact of my ignorance.
Socrates

Read, but not write

Offline BritKyiv

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Re: A message from Timoshenko....
« Reply #19 on: 14:07 03-Jan-2012 »
I think most westerners are soon going to forget about Ms Tymoshenko and Ukraine given the situation in an existing EU Member State named Hungary.

Any perception that Ukraine is backsliding on democracy, freedom of the press, independence of the courts, of the National Bank and all other necessarily independent pillars is going to be insignificant to what has occurred with effect from 1 January in Hungary when its amended Constitution came into force.

When the EU cannot control an EU Member State it is in no position to lecture a sovereign nation that is not in the EU.

Western eyes are soon going to look inwards at Hungary rather than outwards at Ukraine.

With effect from 01.01.12, any criticism of the government by the press in Hungary is illegal.  All the senior judiciary have been "retired" by manipulating the retirement age with new appointment due in the near future as per political nomination, the National Bank is now politically managed in nothing short of a "corporate raid", 3 previous government politicians are under investigation for misuse of office, one independent broadcaster has been closed down already and had its broadcasting frequencies reallocated to a government friendly broadcaster.

That is some going considering it is now only 03.01.12.

The new Constitution nominates the Florin as the only legal tender in Hungary despite EU Members agreeing to adopt the Euro when they agree to join the EU and meet the necessary parameters (and if ever there was a reason for Ukraine not to join the EU it is that it will automatically be expected to adopt the Euro when it met the parameters to do so), thus Hungary has constitutionally disregarded the agreement it made with the EU when it gained entry to the club.

It is quite possible, depending upon your interpretation of what is on paper, whether Hungary now meets the Copenhagen or Maastricht criteria and it is quite probable there is no mechanism to eject Hungary from the EU without the EU collapsing.

Sparring with Ukraine over Tymoshenko will very likely be kicked a long way down to road if the EU will not or cannot deal with events in Hungary swiftly.  Needless to say, I do not expect the EU to be able to deal with Hungary and thus any real politik or rhetoric towards Ukraine is going to seem at best duplicitous and at worst comical.

This being the case, we have to expect a shift in the EU position towards Ukraine.  That shift will be away from Ms Tymoshenko as a person and towards well run, open and honest elections in October, the reason cited being that it is a parliamentary election and her party will take part (and probably do quite well) and not the personality contest of a presidential election.

If a relatively fraud free election happens, the EU can hardly condemn an election in which her party does quite well.  (Technical violations will undoubtedly occur as they do in most nations and at most elections but that does not equal fraud necessarily.)

It will be interesting to watch this develop, but I suspect Ms Tymoshenko will slowly work her way down the list of EU priorities thanks in the most part to events in Hungary and the need for the EU to uphold its own principles within its own Members before lecturing others.


Maybe. At least its far cheaper to live in Budapest these days than in Kyiv. ))))) (So I'm told by a friend who now lives there).
As we know 2012 will be an interesting year for everyone.  :D :D :D :D :D

Here is the visual report from Euro News...so it must be true  ;D
http://youtu.be/4OhqpvCi3nA
I escaped. Now in Sunny Cyprus

Offline P-N

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Re: A message from Timoshenko....
« Reply #20 on: 14:32 03-Jan-2012 »
Nick, your logic is flawed in that you think the EU is consistent and rational. Besides the Americans, they are biggest bunch of hypocrites. 
West will use this based upon their mood. If they are happy with Ukraine, then it will not be mentioned. If they are unhappy, they will bring it up every single time.
They used to condemn China and its Human Rights, but since they need money from China, China is doing "better" with Human Rights.
She will be used as a tool.

How is my logic flawed?  Where did I say the EU is rational  or consistent?

What I stated, if you care to read what I wrote, is that at best, should the EU continue to preach to Ukraine is that is will be seen as overtly and conspicuously duplicitous and at worst comical.

Is that in any way shape or form, stating that the EU is rational or consistent?

Nevertheless, western eyes will have no choice but to look inwardly at Hungary as the US (amongst others) will force the issue.

The Grand Area Plan via European cohesion could very well suffer from a US perspective if Hungary is not addressed and becomes the start of a slippery slope. 

Bulgaria and Romania have very little to be thankful for at present relating to the EU and should Hungary set a precedent that remains unchecked then other former Warsaw Pact nations may well follow the Hungarian lead.

That is not even taking into consideration the accession of Croatia in 2013 despite the fact it currently has political opposition leaders in prison for political reasons.  (The very reason the EU has fallen out with Ukraine) or the up and coming acceptance of Iceland which is actively pursuing an ex political leader (another reason the EU has fallen out with Ukraine).

I am fully aware, probably more so than you about EU duplicity, as I am now paid to research and write about it, however, that does not affect the necessity for the EU to divert attention from Ukraine to deal with Hungarian issues which will undermine any lecturing it wishes to give to those external of the EU (like Ukraine).

There is a very distinct political and policy difference between Hungary and China for the EU.  China is not and never will be an EU member and thus will not be signed up to or indeed need to meet the Copenhagen or Maastricht criteria.  Hungary on the other hand does.

It is an issue of the "self" and the "other".  China being outside the EU will always be the "other" and will always have a different frame when it comes to interaction, policies and engagement.  Hungary, as far as the EU structure is concerned is the "self" and therefore any backsliding from agreed principles is an internal cancer that cannot be allowed to spread from an EU ideological perspective.

Any comparison with China is completely misguided.
"When surrounded by the dark void of the willfully blind, it does not excuse those that are a spark of light their duty to shine" - Me

Offline Claus

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Re: A message from Timoshenko....
« Reply #21 on: 19:01 03-Jan-2012 »
All very well, if I agree or not with previous statements.
But - authorities confirm that they never switch-off the lights in Tym's cell. With the reasoning that as video supervision is not illegal, then light must be legal...  :-X

Even in the Spandau prison, where those of the nazi war criminals were enclosed who were not excecuted - the lights were switched off at 22.00 every night.

I think prisoners have the right to their night.
j'y suis, j'y reste!

Offline P-N

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Re: A message from Timoshenko....
« Reply #22 on: 19:07 03-Jan-2012 »
Claus, now you enter into the realms of human rights and the treatment of prisoners.

I would say that sleep deprivation on a sustained basis is not only a breach of human rights but is in fact torture.
"When surrounded by the dark void of the willfully blind, it does not excuse those that are a spark of light their duty to shine" - Me

Offline P-N

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Re: A message from Timoshenko....
« Reply #23 on: 19:24 03-Jan-2012 »
The question would be is whether leaving the lights on is sleep deprivation.  Many people can sleep with the lights on and therefore are not necessarily deprived of sleep.

Whether it would constitute torture in a legal sense would therefore be defined by some learned gentleman in a courtroom.

Either way, not a decision somebody like me will have to make.
"When surrounded by the dark void of the willfully blind, it does not excuse those that are a spark of light their duty to shine" - Me

Offline clanholmes

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Re: A message from Timoshenko....
« Reply #24 on: 10:57 04-Jan-2012 »

Missing the point totally, EU will do only what it is the best interest of the people in power. Chinese money is a poopty economy is in the best interest of the EU, not human rights.
Same thing with Tymenshenko, as long she can be used as a tool, they will use it. It is a tool to deal with Russia with.
EU has more skeletons in the closet than Hungry. Just like cat and his litter box, they will bury it.

Why can they deal harshly to Ukraine and while things like Hungry are happening? Because they can. What is happening in Hungry is not making big news in the west, but a blond Ukrainian "princess " in jail, that makes press.
 


Nick, your logic is flawed in that you think the EU is consistent and rational. Besides the Americans, they are biggest bunch of hypocrites. 
West will use this based upon their mood. If they are happy with Ukraine, then it will not be mentioned. If they are unhappy, they will bring it up every single time.
They used to condemn China and its Human Rights, but since they need money from China, China is doing "better" with Human Rights.
She will be used as a tool.

How is my logic flawed?  Where did I say the EU is rational  or consistent?

What I stated, if you care to read what I wrote, is that at best, should the EU continue to preach to Ukraine is that is will be seen as overtly and conspicuously duplicitous and at worst comical.

Is that in any way shape or form, stating that the EU is rational or consistent?

Nevertheless, western eyes will have no choice but to look inwardly at Hungary as the US (amongst others) will force the issue.

The Grand Area Plan via European cohesion could very well suffer from a US perspective if Hungary is not addressed and becomes the start of a slippery slope. 

Bulgaria and Romania have very little to be thankful for at present relating to the EU and should Hungary set a precedent that remains unchecked then other former Warsaw Pact nations may well follow the Hungarian lead.

That is not even taking into consideration the accession of Croatia in 2013 despite the fact it currently has political opposition leaders in prison for political reasons.  (The very reason the EU has fallen out with Ukraine) or the up and coming acceptance of Iceland which is actively pursuing an ex political leader (another reason the EU has fallen out with Ukraine).

I am fully aware, probably more so than you about EU duplicity, as I am now paid to research and write about it, however, that does not affect the necessity for the EU to divert attention from Ukraine to deal with Hungarian issues which will undermine any lecturing it wishes to give to those external of the EU (like Ukraine).

There is a very distinct political and policy difference between Hungary and China for the EU.  China is not and never will be an EU member and thus will not be signed up to or indeed need to meet the Copenhagen or Maastricht criteria.  Hungary on the other hand does.

It is an issue of the "self" and the "other".  China being outside the EU will always be the "other" and will always have a different frame when it comes to interaction, policies and engagement.  Hungary, as far as the EU structure is concerned is the "self" and therefore any backsliding from agreed principles is an internal cancer that cannot be allowed to spread from an EU ideological perspective.

Any comparison with China is completely misguided.
I know nothing except the fact of my ignorance.
Socrates

Read, but not write

Offline P-N

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Re: A message from Timoshenko....
« Reply #25 on: 11:49 04-Jan-2012 »
Missing the point totally, EU will do only what it is the best interest of the people in power. Chinese money is a poopty economy is in the best interest of the EU, not human rights.

Quite true, but the EU does not claim to have any influence or any shared ideology with China.  That is not the case with Hungary.  To join the EU a nation contractually agrees to uphold certain principles as laid down in the Copenhagen and Maastricht agreements (not to mention numerous other lesser EU laws and protocols).

Hungary agreed to abide by the principles of the Copenhagen and Maastricht agreements when it joined.  China has never agreed to do so.

Therefore Hungary is an internal problem of the "self".  Hungary is a reflection on EU cohesion, EU principles and EU direction.  Hungary should not need dragging to heel over EU principles it has promised to uphold on joining and any deviation from them is a reflection on the EU and its ability to keep its members to the principles it is formed upon.

China is none of these things.  China is an external actor with whom the EU will deal with to its best advantage where ever possible, just as it does Canada or Australia or Japan. 

The EU has no more influence over Chinese human rights than it does Japanese whaling or Australian defence policy.  None of these nations signed a membership agreement to abide by EU positions on any of those policy areas.

Hungary did sign such agreements when joining the EU over democracy, freedom of the media etc. 

It is you who are missing the point entirely.  It is all about "self" and "other".  It is about identity.  It is about the principles of the "self" and not the principles of the "other" with whom it is necessary to interact on a the world stage (and lecture occasionally) out of necessity.

As I have written above, the EU, as you rightly state., has many skeletons in its closet, and I went on to list a current few without even delving into its past record, but the Hungarian issue is about identity and undermining that collective EU identity when lecturing Ukraine (or others).

Why can they deal harshly to Ukraine and while things like Hungry are happening? Because they can. What is happening in Hungry is not making big news in the west, but a blond Ukrainian "princess " in jail, that makes press.

Hungary is making more news this week than Tymoshenko.  It has been all over the European press and TV.  It has even made it onto Ukrainian TV which has given Tymoshenko more time than Hungary, but it still made it to Ukrainian TV nonetheless.

As for the usefulness of Tymoshenko to the EU?  I would suggest you read the press statement from the EEAS relating to Tymoshenko's failed appeal at the end of last year.  In it the EEAS has acknowledged that Tymoshenko will not take part in the October elections and as such, Baroness Ashton is conceding that Ms Tymoshenko is no longer much of a lever with the Ukrainian government and that the EU sees no way to manufacture her release in order to take part.

In short, Ms Tymoshenko is of no leverage use with the Ukrainian government and the EU has now eventually acknowledged that fact at the highest levels via that press release.  It doesn't mean the EU has lost the geopolitical war with Ukraine, but it has lost that particular battle relating to her participation.

Ms Tymoshenko may have some use for the EU going forward, but not in the immediate future.  It will probably still continue to bang the Tymoshenko drum occasionally as it has no choice (she is an EPP member) but it is quite clear that it does not expect her to be released any time soon.

The EU will therefore shift its stance towards a whiter than white election in October 2012 instead.  If that turns into a fraudulent farce then I don't expect Ukraine to hold the interest of the EU thereafter in any meaningful way.  The EU will simply move on from all things Ukrainian. 

Should that happen, whether it turns out to be a good or bad thing remains to be seen from both an EU and Ukrainian perspective.   

"When surrounded by the dark void of the willfully blind, it does not excuse those that are a spark of light their duty to shine" - Me

Offline P-N

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Re: A message from Timoshenko....
« Reply #26 on: 13:27 04-Jan-2012 »
To add to the EU embarrassment over the direction that is perceived by many that Hungary is taking, and the EU ability to keep the EU identity and EU principles of democracy and media freedoms sacrosanct, a leaked letter to Hungary from the US is circulating (how mainstream that circulation is I am not sure, but I will add to that embarrassment a little further by posting the letter here as well as it was sent to me)

http://nol.hu/media/file/attach/25/14/00/000001425-6248.pdf

As I have previously stated, the US will not be best pleased to see democratic backsliding within EU Members that make Ukraine look far better than an EU Member State.

Again it is about identity.  The US (and many others) identify the EU as holders and upholders of democratic principle.  A kindred spirit over such issues.  A partner that can be relied upon do promote such values.

If Hungary becomes the thin end of the wedge amongst EU Member States, it throws the entire EU core political ideology into crisis and thus must be confronted.

The EU leadership must be and undoubtedly are very concerned and embarrassed over this matter.  It undermines their collective position when lecturing others.  It may not stop them lecturing but it will prevent them being taken as seriously as they once were, not only by Ukraine but by the planet.

Identity is a critical matter, particularly to a supra-structure that operates on consensus and shared values.  If those within and without find fault with that identity the legitimacy of the supra-structure crumbles as does any perceived authority it may have.

"When surrounded by the dark void of the willfully blind, it does not excuse those that are a spark of light their duty to shine" - Me

Offline P-N

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"When surrounded by the dark void of the willfully blind, it does not excuse those that are a spark of light their duty to shine" - Me

Offline clanholmes

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Re: A message from Timoshenko....
« Reply #28 on: 18:24 04-Jan-2012 »
The comparison is with Ukraine, not Hungary.

Again if the EU can use something in their benefit, they will. For example, they used WTO access to get concessions from Russia.
Look at the stuff with Greece and Portugal, EU has said nothing.
Leadership of the EU think they are greatest minds in the world, yet they have bankrupt their countries .





Missing the point totally, EU will do only what it is the best interest of the people in power. Chinese money is a poopty economy is in the best interest of the EU, not human rights.

Quite true, but the EU does not claim to have any influence or any shared ideology with China.  That is not the case with Hungary.  To join the EU a nation contractually agrees to uphold certain principles as laid down in the Copenhagen and Maastricht agreements (not to mention numerous other lesser EU laws and protocols).

Hungary agreed to abide by the principles of the Copenhagen and Maastricht agreements when it joined.  China has never agreed to do so.

Therefore Hungary is an internal problem of the "self".  Hungary is a reflection on EU cohesion, EU principles and EU direction.  Hungary should not need dragging to heel over EU principles it has promised to uphold on joining and any deviation from them is a reflection on the EU and its ability to keep its members to the principles it is formed upon.

China is none of these things.  China is an external actor with whom the EU will deal with to its best advantage where ever possible, just as it does Canada or Australia or Japan. 

The EU has no more influence over Chinese human rights than it does Japanese whaling or Australian defence policy.  None of these nations signed a membership agreement to abide by EU positions on any of those policy areas.

Hungary did sign such agreements when joining the EU over democracy, freedom of the media etc. 

It is you who are missing the point entirely.  It is all about "self" and "other".  It is about identity.  It is about the principles of the "self" and not the principles of the "other" with whom it is necessary to interact on a the world stage (and lecture occasionally) out of necessity.

As I have written above, the EU, as you rightly state., has many skeletons in its closet, and I went on to list a current few without even delving into its past record, but the Hungarian issue is about identity and undermining that collective EU identity when lecturing Ukraine (or others).

Why can they deal harshly to Ukraine and while things like Hungry are happening? Because they can. What is happening in Hungry is not making big news in the west, but a blond Ukrainian "princess " in jail, that makes press.

Hungary is making more news this week than Tymoshenko.  It has been all over the European press and TV.  It has even made it onto Ukrainian TV which has given Tymoshenko more time than Hungary, but it still made it to Ukrainian TV nonetheless.

As for the usefulness of Tymoshenko to the EU?  I would suggest you read the press statement from the EEAS relating to Tymoshenko's failed appeal at the end of last year.  In it the EEAS has acknowledged that Tymoshenko will not take part in the October elections and as such, Baroness Ashton is conceding that Ms Tymoshenko is no longer much of a lever with the Ukrainian government and that the EU sees no way to manufacture her release in order to take part.

In short, Ms Tymoshenko is of no leverage use with the Ukrainian government and the EU has now eventually acknowledged that fact at the highest levels via that press release.  It doesn't mean the EU has lost the geopolitical war with Ukraine, but it has lost that particular battle relating to her participation.

Ms Tymoshenko may have some use for the EU going forward, but not in the immediate future.  It will probably still continue to bang the Tymoshenko drum occasionally as it has no choice (she is an EPP member) but it is quite clear that it does not expect her to be released any time soon.

The EU will therefore shift its stance towards a whiter than white election in October 2012 instead.  If that turns into a fraudulent farce then I don't expect Ukraine to hold the interest of the EU thereafter in any meaningful way.  The EU will simply move on from all things Ukrainian. 

Should that happen, whether it turns out to be a good or bad thing remains to be seen from both an EU and Ukrainian perspective.   
I know nothing except the fact of my ignorance.
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Offline P-N

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Re: A message from Timoshenko....
« Reply #29 on: 19:18 04-Jan-2012 »
The comparison is with Ukraine, not Hungary.

Indeed.  Hungary is an EU Member State that has contractually agreed to uphold democracy, rule of law, media freedom, independent non-politically controlled organs of State and Ukraine must do the same to join the EU or indeed get the AA signed and ratified.

So let's compare Ukraine and Hungary, EU and non-EU as you fail to see the relevance of recent events in Hungary with regards to Ukraine.  Hungarian identity as far as commitments to democracy, associated freedoms and independence is the same identity as the EU for those were the rules upon joining. It is an EU Member.  Therefore the comparison between Hungary and Ukraine is valid on that basis. 

Both former Communist nations.  One inside the EU and one outside the EU. 

One installed a power vertical in 2010 (Ukraine) and one installed a power vertical with effect from 01.01.12 (Hungary)

One has always had some political control of the judiciary via influence (Ukraine), the other went much further and legislated to do so on 01.01.12 (Hungary)

One is accused of media manipulation and control since 2010 (Ukraine) and the other has gone much further and legislated to control the media in 2012 (Hungary).

One has always had undue political influence over its National Bank (Ukraine) and the other went much further and has legislated to do that from 01.01.12 (Hungary).

One signed several core principled documents on EU membership to do none of those things (Hungary) and the other has not signed up to the Copenhagen and Maastricht agreements (Ukraine).

One is the "other" outside the EU identity and subject to EU lectures (Ukraine) and the other is the "self" (Hungary) part of the EU which is supposed to abide by the core political EU principles it pledged to do when joining and add additional regional weight to promote and advance those principles amongst existing and potential members.

Would you like me to continue to compare recent events in Hungary to those in Ukraine to demonstrate how serious the issues in Hungary are to EU identity (both internally and how the EU is viewed from outside) and how Hungary is now politically and legislatively more regressed than Ukraine?

What is the EU supra-structure identity based upon if not commonly held and rigorously promoted democratic values?  EU identity is certainly not based on a common currency as 11 Member States don't use it.  It is not based on a common language as every EU document is translated into 22 different languages.  It is not based on a common border as it has 27 (soon 28) component borders and within each sit sovereign nations with their own domestic and foreign policies, bilateral and multilateral relations that surpass any notional EU boundaries with non-EU members.  It is not based on a common foreign policy neither is it based on a common domestic policy (discounting the 4 core founding principles which are coming under increasing stress).

What is EU identity if not the commonly held principles in the Copenhagen and Maastricht agreements every single Member State is signed up to and must meet to join?

Hungary, definitely on paper (legislatively and constitutionally) with effect from 01.01.12, is now in a far worse democratic position than Ukraine is even after the recent installation of the power vertical here. 

There will be (as the must be) far more pressure now put on Hungary by the EU and US than that which Ukraine has been subjected to if the EU identity and any EU authority are to retain legitimacy on the international stage when preaching to nations like Ukraine over issues such as democracy, rule of law, media and other necessary independent pillars of society.

The EU is aware of it, the US is aware of it and nations like Ukraine are aware of it.  Legitimacy matters and recent Hungarian actions seriously undermine that legitimacy.  Should other nations within the EU follow the Hungarian line if it is allowed to continue, what EU identity is will disintegrate slowly but surely.

Again if the EU can use something in their benefit, they will.

Unless I am missing something, that is the whole premise of every domestic and foreign policy for every nation and supra-structural entity in existence.

What would you have policy founded upon?  The premise of losing out on opportunities that present themselves?  Entering into diplomacy and negotiation to lose?  Signing contracts and agreements to disadvantage self interest?

What do you think politics, policy and international relations are about?  ???

« Last Edit: 19:46 04-Jan-2012 by P-N »
"When surrounded by the dark void of the willfully blind, it does not excuse those that are a spark of light their duty to shine" - Me