Expat Ukraine Forum

Expatriate Life => Q&A => Topic started by: Fillou on 20:01 27-Aug-2018

Title: Slavery in Poland
Post by: Fillou on 20:01 27-Aug-2018
Just came back from Poland, many industries "hire" Ukrainians while taking advantage of the 3 month visa free system.
The example I witnessed : 4 euros / hour, 12 hours a day (with only a 15 min break) and 6 or even 7 days a week.
Now I understand why the Polish business community has such a profound interest in Ukrainian expats.
Title: Re: Slavery in Poland
Post by: julienp on 20:21 27-Aug-2018
Just came back from Poland, many industries "hire" Ukrainians while taking advantage of the 3 month visa free system.
The example I witnessed : 4 euros / hour, 12 hours a day (with only a 15 min break) and 6 or even 7 days a week.
Now I understand why the Polish business community has such a profound interest in Ukrainian expats.
And that's 4 times the average salary of Kyiv (and without any taxes/charges as it's undeclared work)
So no surprise Ukrainians are doing it... They can work hard for 3 months and earn a year worth of Ukrainian salary

PS : if you account for the cost of living, the benefits are much reduced... but still better than at home
Title: Re: Slavery in Poland
Post by: AkMike on 05:34 28-Aug-2018
It's hardly slavery because the employment can be stopped.
 Fair employment? Hardly but not slavery.
 Ukrainains are not owned like  a slaves were.
Title: Re: Slavery in Poland
Post by: Pantherdk on 15:02 28-Aug-2018
Just came back from Poland, many industries "hire" Ukrainians while taking advantage of the 3 month visa free system.
The example I witnessed : 4 euros / hour, 12 hours a day (with only a 15 min break) and 6 or even 7 days a week.
Now I understand why the Polish business community has such a profound interest in Ukrainian expats.
And that's 4 times the average salary of Kyiv (and without any taxes/charges as it's undeclared work)
So no surprise Ukrainians are doing it... They can work hard for 3 months and earn a year worth of Ukrainian salary

PS : if you account for the cost of living, the benefits are much reduced... but still better than at home

The average salery in Kiev is around 10.000 UAH or 330 USD so 4 Euro is not 4x the average salery.
Brickworkers in Kiev get a pretty good salery at the moment ofc. not 4 EUR an hour but should be able to get 50 UAH atm.

This illegal Work will only Work until the unions and the police start to strike Down on it.
Ukranians WHO take these jobs must be not very wellinformed, because there is infact alot of Visa posibilitys for Builders, Farmworkers in poland, bulgaria and the rest of europe.
Title: Re: Slavery in Poland
Post by: Ted on 15:19 28-Aug-2018
Just came back from Poland, many industries "hire" Ukrainians while taking advantage of the 3 month visa free system.
The example I witnessed : 4 euros / hour, 12 hours a day (with only a 15 min break) and 6 or even 7 days a week.
Now I understand why the Polish business community has such a profound interest in Ukrainian expats.
And that's 4 times the average salary of Kyiv (and without any taxes/charges as it's undeclared work)
So no surprise Ukrainians are doing it... They can work hard for 3 months and earn a year worth of Ukrainian salary

PS : if you account for the cost of living, the benefits are much reduced... but still better than at home

The average salery in Kiev is around 10.000 UAH or 330 USD so 4 Euro is not 4x the average salery.
Brickworkers in Kiev get a pretty good salery at the moment ofc. not 4 EUR an hour but should be able to get 50 UAH atm.

This illegal Work will only Work until the unions and the police start to strike Down on it.
Ukranians WHO take these jobs must be not very wellinformed, because there is infact alot of Visa posibilitys for Builders, Farmworkers in poland, bulgaria and the rest of europe.

Kyiv is not the center of the universe, it is not where the workers are coming from. Use your head.
Title: Re: Slavery in Poland
Post by: Pantherdk on 22:22 28-Aug-2018
There was talked about wrong average salery in Kiev.

Yes i know Kiev is not centrum of ukraine or the World.
What is it in my post you dont like  ?

Title: Re: Slavery in Poland
Post by: David Rochlin on 06:09 29-Aug-2018
Stats on average salary in Kyiv:
https://tradingeconomics.com/ukraine/wages
Title: Re: Slavery in Poland
Post by: Ted on 15:29 29-Aug-2018
Stats on average salary in Kyiv:
https://tradingeconomics.com/ukraine/wages

Average across all of Ukraine not just Kyiv would be "an all time high of 9141 UAH/Month in June of 2018" or 277.55 Euros per month based on today's exchange rate.

4 euros an hour x 12 = 48 euros a day x 5 days = 240euros x 4.3 weeks = 1032euros a month (33,967UAH)  a hell of a lot more than the above 277.5 which means the potential or theoretical salary in Poland is 3.71 times more than Ukraine. Under the table and no tax.

Correct??
Title: Re: Slavery in Poland
Post by: Darren Jones on 17:28 29-Aug-2018
Stats on average salary in Kyiv:
https://tradingeconomics.com/ukraine/wages

Average across all of Ukraine not just Kyiv would be "an all time high of 9141 UAH/Month in June of 2018" or 277.55 Euros per month based on today's exchange rate.

4 euros an hour x 12 = 48 euros a day x 5 days = 240euros x 4.3 weeks = 1032euros a month (33,967UAH)  a hell of a lot more than the above 277.5 which means the potential or theoretical salary in Poland is 3.71 times more than Ukraine. Under the table and no tax.

Correct??

Take that average with a Babushka size pinch of  salt.

In the manufacturing industry you pay only a % of the true salary, normally minimum wage to the lowest paid and then the higher paid 40-50uah more than  minimum wage per day. Then  the balance of their true salary in cash.

Put it into perspective when I came over here the factory I ran had 30 employees, 12 on cash 180uah per day, 7 on minimum  wage (at the time I think 120uah per day) who were getting paid 80uah more per day in cash. Then 8 machine operators on 200uah per day officially with 150uah per day extra in cash 3 Managers on 220uah per day but getting 280uah per day cash.

So all 30 employees official salary per day -  3107uah
non official salary per day  - 4760uah

At the time to show all workers as official on true salary it was about $3-4000 extra tax to pay and this company as a sinking ship but once I did this and suddenly  everyone was working for a pension quality  control and mood changed overnight.

Now this company was balancing well, many companies I did business  with had there full workforce on minimum wage officially   ::) 

Yes there are many companies employing people on minimum salary but I would estimate the average monthly salary officially for a director is $500...his pay back on the land cruiser is double that!

Title: Re: Slavery in Poland
Post by: julienp on 10:32 31-Aug-2018
The average salery in Kiev is around 10.000 UAH or 330 USD so 4 Euro is not 4x the average salery.
Brickworkers in Kiev get a pretty good salery at the moment ofc. not 4 EUR an hour but should be able to get 50 UAH atm.
Does it matter if it's 4 times or 1.5 or 2.7 times higher salary ? It is higher enough to motivate Ukrainians to go there.
If they go on a 3 months slavery trip and come back again & again, it would be quit masochist...

This illegal Work will only Work until the unions and the police start to strike Down on it.
Ukranians WHO take these jobs must be not very wellinformed, because there is infact alot of Visa posibilitys for Builders, Farmworkers in poland, bulgaria and the rest of europe.
First, some do use visas. I have a handful of friends/acquaintances who work in Poland/Germany and all use visa... But nearly all used the 3 months visa-free as probation period before the company made the effort to do their visa.
And will police really crack-down on the visa-free "workers" when there are shortage of labours ?
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-04-05/poland-in-labor-bind-so-bad-it-can-t-staff-job-placement-offices


Now I understand why the Polish business community has such a profound interest in Ukrainian expats.
Maybe it's more nuanced than just "it's slavery" :)
Title: Re: Slavery in Poland
Post by: kyivkpic on 13:36 31-Aug-2018
There is actual slavery in Russia.
Title: Re: Slavery in Poland
Post by: Kord on 01:38 02-Sep-2018
Just came back from Poland, many industries "hire" Ukrainians while taking advantage of the 3 month visa free system.
The example I witnessed : 4 euros / hour, 12 hours a day (with only a 15 min break) and 6 or even 7 days a week.
Now I understand why the Polish business community has such a profound interest in Ukrainian expats.

Sure, Ukrainians want to go and work in a "friendly" country and make more money than back home. Basically the same as Mexicans do in USA but Ukrainians are not illegally living and working in Poland.

https://financialobserver.eu/poland/a-new-wave-of-ukrainian-migration-to-poland/ (https://financialobserver.eu/poland/a-new-wave-of-ukrainian-migration-to-poland/)
Title: Re: Slavery in Poland
Post by: Danno99 on 14:18 20-Sep-2018
I know a guy who goes to Poland and works for a company driving a truck. He drives for 3 months at a time.
 I think he is living in that truck for 3 months.  ???
Title: Re: Slavery in Poland
Post by: kyivkpic on 15:31 20-Sep-2018
I know a guy who goes to Poland and works for a company driving a truck. He drives for 3 months at a time.
 I think he is living in that truck for 3 months.  ???

Maybe it has a sleeper cab? Many truck drivers sleep in their rigs.
Title: Re: Slavery in Poland
Post by: Danno99 on 17:07 20-Sep-2018
I know a guy who goes to Poland and works for a company driving a truck. He drives for 3 months at a time.
 I think he is living in that truck for 3 months.  ???

Maybe it has a sleeper cab? Many truck drivers sleep in their rigs.

Yeah that is assumed but 3 months alone in a truck is a bit much.
Title: Re: Slavery in Poland
Post by: Kord on 15:37 21-Sep-2018
I know a guy who goes to Poland and works for a company driving a truck. He drives for 3 months at a time.
 I think he is living in that truck for 3 months.  ???


Maybe it has a sleeper cab? Many truck drivers sleep in their rigs.

Yeah that is assumed but 3 months alone in a truck is a bit much.

Maybe he was not always alone )

(http://www.boltcustom.com/wp-content/gallery/tractor-trailers/Bolt_double_bunk_sleeper_table7086.jpg)

Doesn't have to be bad...

Title: Re: Slavery in Poland
Post by: Danno99 on 13:23 06-Jan-2019
I know a guy who goes to Poland and works for a company driving a truck. He drives for 3 months at a time.
 I think he is living in that truck for 3 months.  ???


Maybe it has a sleeper cab? Many truck drivers sleep in their rigs.

Yeah that is assumed but 3 months alone in a truck is a bit much.

Maybe he was not always alone )

(http://www.boltcustom.com/wp-content/gallery/tractor-trailers/Bolt_double_bunk_sleeper_table7086.jpg)

Doesn't have to be bad...

Is that the cab of a truck? Been a long time since I climbed up in one. The last one I recall just kinda had a large mattress behind the seats. I drive by ones where the cab looks larger, never looked in one.
Title: Re: Slavery in Poland
Post by: AkMike on 16:34 06-Jan-2019
That's the 'sleeper' behind the cab. They can be as plush or as spartan as you want but it costs big time for the fancy ones. The uni-built cabs (sleeper and cab combimation) give mor floor space because the front seats swivel around and recline like a Lazy-boy. Much nicer to relax during you off duty hours out on the super slab.
Title: Re: Slavery in Poland
Post by: kyivkpic on 17:50 07-Jan-2019
That's the 'sleeper' behind the cab. They can be as plush or as spartan as you want but it costs big time for the fancy ones. The uni-built cabs (sleeper and cab combimation) give mor floor space because the front seats swivel around and recline like a Lazy-boy. Much nicer to relax during you off duty hours out on the super slab.

I've seen videos of the newest ones all decked like a RV with a sink, toilet and shower. What kind of trucking can actually make a profit with cost and maintenance of those things? What are private owner operators hauling to pay for it? I assume big companies don't buy them for hired truckers.
Title: Re: Slavery in Poland
Post by: Danno99 on 10:54 15-Jan-2019
That's the 'sleeper' behind the cab. They can be as plush or as spartan as you want but it costs big time for the fancy ones. The uni-built cabs (sleeper and cab combimation) give mor floor space because the front seats swivel around and recline like a Lazy-boy. Much nicer to relax during you off duty hours out on the super slab.

I've seen videos of the newest ones all decked like a RV with a sink, toilet and shower. What kind of trucking can actually make a profit with cost and maintenance of those things? What are private owner operators hauling to pay for it? I assume big companies don't buy them for hired truckers.

No, I would think these are for Owner-operators. They are a significant portion of longhaul trucking.

Title: Re: Slavery in Poland
Post by: AkMike on 14:38 22-Jan-2019
Because of the lack of good drivers and their willingness to jump ship for better pay and conditions the fleets are forced to start paying more and providing better, nicer trucks for them. That seems to keep the drivers happier. :D
 Once I was offered a new truck to run around stateside by a small fleet owner but I had to commit for at least 3 months one winter. ( Mostly because I knew how to drive in winter conditions) It was my off season but the $.25 per mile offer just wouldn't cut it. I was required to off load what ever by myself (off duty because I was paid by the mile) or I'd hire workers / lumpers to do it out of my pocket.
 
Needless to say I passed on that offer but there were many back then that would have jumped on it.

 I understand that things are changing, mostly for the better but now the electronic logs and the vast amount of government paperwork needed is crazy. And if you don't kow-tow to the government they fine you with some hefty dollar amounts.

I'd hate to be a young buck just starting out in this game now.