Expat Ukraine Forum

Expatriate Life => Q&A => Topic started by: SilverBullet on 05:58 02-Jan-2008

Title: Any differences between Ukrainian and Russian women?
Post by: SilverBullet on 05:58 02-Jan-2008
Any differences between Russian and Ukrainian women? Any thoughts? Any married expats with Ukrainian or Russian wives? Any word of advice to keep in mind for single expats considering tying the knot in the new year? A simple observation can perhaps be that these two people are very similar but in Ukraine there are more dark-haired (by nature) and hazel-eyed women, while in Russia more blondes and blue-eyed women. Reportedly there is a saying that Ukrainian women are more opinionated and persistent. They are great hostesses, they like to cook and invite guests home. Ukranian girls are more ready to act on impulse while Russian women are more prudent and sensible? Any thoughts? While on the subject; what can be said about Moldovian girls? I know it is difficult to try to generalize on such a topic, but perhaps some of you have some experience to share?   :-\
Title: Re: Any differences between Ukrainian and Russian women?
Post by: Lt. Campers on 06:28 02-Jan-2008
Just watch out for the money scammers !!!
Title: Re: Any differences between Ukrainian and Russian women?
Post by: matlockk on 09:39 02-Jan-2008
I'm getting married in February to a lady I met 3 years ago in Moscow. She was born and raised in Kiev but left for Moscow when she was 25 and lived there for 20 years. I think I can speak with some authority on this! Bear in mind my views are generalisations and there will be exceptions on both sides. I do find Ukrainian womed warmer, gentle and fun loving. Russian women are much more demanding and straightforward. I think the dark haired swarthy ones you've seen originate from East ukraine as there are many blonds in the west.

it sound like you are on the look out for one! my advice is forget nationality and look for love.

Good luck!
Title: Re: Any differences between Ukrainian and Russian women?
Post by: ecocks on 06:57 03-Jan-2008

"It sound like you are on the look out for one! my advice is forget nationality and look for love!"



Yeah, what Keith said!  Wouldn't trade mine for anything imaginable.

Title: Re: Any differences between Ukrainian and Russian women?
Post by: SilverBullet on 07:43 03-Jan-2008
Thanks for all the good advice. Matlockk, congratulations with your upcoming wedding!

I find that both Russians and Ukrainians are very direct and straight forward but that is from what I understand due to the culture and the tone of the Russian language. The language is much more direct than English and if you are not aware of it, you would think that the other person is not very diplomatic. Russians and Ukrainians will tell you the truth, what they like or not like. There is not much diplomacy. It is a very straightforward language.

As for money scammers .... how do I spot them?  :-\ I would think you can say the same about many Western women too. From what I hear, there are more crime and scams going on in St. Pete and Moscow than in Kyiv.   

I agree that nationality doesn't matter in love. That said I am happy with my lady who I have known for 2 years already. She is a Kyivian.  :)
Title: Re: Spotting scammers....
Post by: ecocks on 09:00 03-Jan-2008

As for money scammers .... how do I spot them?  :-\ I would think you can say the same about many Western women too. From what I hear, there are more crime and scams going on in St. Pete and Moscow than in Kyiv.   


I can spot 'em, look for the little taxi sign on top of their cars... ::)

Actually better than it was summer before last though.  At least it seems that way to me.
Title: Re: Any differences between Ukrainian and Russian women?
Post by: P-N on 07:48 21-Jan-2008
Met my wife in Moscow and assumed she was Russian  :-[ - Turns out she was Ukraine from Odessa.  Women are women, you will never understand them but you gotta love them.  If you love them it won't matter where they are from - Jupiter, Mars, Saturn, whichever planet!!!!!    ;D
Title: Re: Any differences between Ukrainian and Russian women?
Post by: Packman on 12:24 21-Jan-2008
It was told to me, that since Ukraine has a history of basically getting "raped" by Russia, in all things such as culture, food etc. that traditionally Ukrainian women have needed to be more attentive and better lovers for the men they are able to find.

Now I don't know if I believe it, I don't have the level of experience with Ukrainian women to say yet.  But so far I find that while there are alot of behavioral similarities between Ukrainian and Russian women, but so I would tend to agree with the generalization above.  Additionally I would add Ukrainian are much more open to western things at this point given the lack of state sponsored xenophobia that Russians are exposed to.
Title: Re: Any differences between Ukrainian and Russian women?
Post by: Claus on 14:59 21-Jan-2008
We're talking about millions of people here - all unique.
But there is one factual difference between Ukrainian and Russian women: The vast majory of Ukrainians speak two languages, Ukrainian and Russian; the vast majority of Russians speak only one language, Russian.
Title: Re: Any differences between Ukrainian and Russian women?
Post by: Carlusha on 22:03 21-Jan-2008
Met my wife accidentally in London, UK and later found she was from Odessa, Ukraine. We swapped letters for a couple of years. I visited her in Odessa, fell in love and married her.  :-*

Nine years later ................... still bliss!

Both very happy, both retired, homes in UK and Ukraine. After all these years, I am still trying to get to grips with the million superstitions she has! Just received a minor rollicking today for putting the broom against the wall, bristle-end down (it should be bristle-end up!)  ???

I wouldn't change her for the world!  :D
Title: Re: Any differences between Ukrainian and Russian women?
Post by: SilverBullet on 05:35 22-Jan-2008
After all these years, I am still trying to get to grips with the million superstitions she has! Just received a minor rollicking today for putting the broom against the wall, bristle-end down (it should be bristle-end up!)  ???

I wouldn't change her for the world!  :D

Yeah, the list of superstitions can be long. No whistling while indoors (then my money will go away), sit down in a quiet moment to think about the journey you are about to make just before you leave,  and so on, but I would think both Moldovian and Russian women act like that too  :-\. I think it is hard to generalize anything, people are just too different regardless of nationality. Still trying to figure things out though  ::) There should be some cultural differences. What I have noticed is that Eastern European women are light years ahead of Western women, they are more grown up, serious and have an impressive cultural background from their education. Never come across women who has read so many famous authors, not only Russian and Ukrainian litterature but even the Norwegian Knut Hamsun's novel "Hunger" and Henrik Ibsen. Never came across an American girl who had read such authors. Visited the University in Dnepropetrovsk on Karl Marx Street, no grafitti on the camp grounds, good security with guards, crystal chandeliers and silk curtains. You never see anything like that in the USA.
Title: Re: Any differences between Ukrainian and Russian women?
Post by: Carlusha on 22:09 22-Jan-2008
Yes, funny you should mention that! The universities are the same in Odessa - one feels as though one is visiting a stately home belonging to a minor royal.

Oh, and I just received another rap on the knuckle for attempting (attempting, mind you) to take the rubbish out to the bin outside our apartment after dark! No rubbish to be thrown out after dark! Is that superstition 1,000,001?
Title: Ukrainian superstitions.
Post by: JonathanCampion on 07:47 23-Jan-2008
I got a telling off at the weekend for pouring vodka 'backhanded', with my palm facing the ceiling.

I know ravens are unlucky, as they say that they only congregate in bad places.

And giving birth by Caesaerian section is a curse on the child, as it will not fear its' own death.

J
Title: Re: Any differences between Ukrainian and Russian women?
Post by: SmartJAzzInOdessa on 02:42 22-Feb-2008
Excuse my bluntness...  Do you think that there is a shelf labelled "Ukrainian Women," and that all of the women there are one and the same, just some with bigger boobs than the other?  How can one even begin to label these women (or any person of any gender, sex and yes, there is a difference by the way, or race) by their nationality?  That is a ridiculous notion.  Do you consider yourself different from your friends, or are you all the same because of your nationality?  What would make one think that women (in general, people) in another country are all homogeneous?   One word, perhaps... Ethnocentrism.  The current social paradigm is that of the society based on individual social units.  Good luck with your "goal" of finding a nationally categorizable woman before the "new year"... Excuse my bluntness, but we are humans and should be treated and thought of as such, not products.  Is it only me that thinks those marriage agencies are sordid and a disgrace? 
Title: Re: Any differences between Ukrainian and Russian women?
Post by: SmartJAzzInOdessa on 02:51 22-Feb-2008
By the way, concerning Eastern Europeans being light years ahead of Western women... Don't confuse DIFFERENT with ADVANCED.  If an Eastern European were to visit America, he would say the same thing... Just as those women there read Russian literature, ours read Western literature, and he might say "Oh, I've never met a woman who has read Faulkner or Thorough!"  Although you don't see graffiti there, they don't see paid bathrooms or internet paid for by the MB in America.  :-)  Everything is relative...
Title: Any differences between Ukrainian and Russian women?
Post by: JonathanCampion on 07:45 22-Feb-2008
I agree and disagree with the last posts.

"Differences" can mean many things, and if it is boob size that the person who asked the question was after then it's a topic best forgotten. But there are differences between Russians and Ukrainians, the same as there are between Russia and Ukraine, in terms of culture and customs. It isn't judgemental as long as the debate is objective.

Russian women (for the record I don't have massive experience in this) seem more carefree. Ukrainian women seem more selfless and grown-up. But as young people in Kyiv are all trying to be decadent Muscovites, the gap is closing.

It shouldn't matter where a girl is from, though, if you get on well.

Title: Re: Any differences between Ukrainian and Russian women?
Post by: SmartJAzzInOdessa on 09:36 22-Feb-2008
:-D The boob size comment was meant for irony :-)  I simply meant to say that generalizations don't apply, and that one can't search for a wife by nationality, and you can't window shop for wives on agency websites, nor should the reason for being in a foreign country be to search for a wife.  In general, each woman is different... You'll find an uptight Ukrainian, and an uptight Russian.  You'll also find a carefree Ukrainian, and a Russian counterpart.  Every experience that a person has influences who that person is.  And yes, of course there are differences in culture, but this isn't necessarily going to allow for categorizations.  For example, yes, Ukraine has its own culture, but so does Kiev, so does Kharkov, so does Kherson.  Even the eastern and western parts.  And even then, you have subcultures within cities... Sorry for the long posts... Anthropology major speaking :-D
Title: Re: Any differences between Ukrainian and Russian women?
Post by: SilverBullet on 09:38 24-Feb-2008
rayjazz21
Don’t take it too seriously, of course one can not generalize and place labels on different groups of people. All groups consist of very different individuals, still sometimes there can be certain differences between nationalities in broad general terms. It can be due to culture, faith, educational system, political system etc.

As for marriage agencies being a disgrace, I think that is too harsh of a statement. Why is that? In my opinion it is just another place for people to meet. What about the internet, dating web sites, you find that in every country. There are plenty of them in America for sure Match.com, YahooPersonals.com, a long list. The important thing is that the internet lets people to meet and connect over great distances. As an example, for someone living in Lugansk it is possible to make friends and meet people all over the world. The same for someone in China and in the USA. The society is changing with this globalization and opens up endless of opportunities in business, careers, the social arena and everything else. I think the "traditional" marriage agencies is an alternative for some who doesn’t have easy access to a computer and the internet at home, or who doesn’t speak English. The important thing is that for many it opens up new opportunities and is a place to meet for those who have an interest.

All this said, a Ukrainian friend of mine met her Ukrainian husband over the internet in Kyiv. In that respect a Ukrainian website enabled two Ukrainians to meet that way despite they were both living in the same city. It was possible with the internet, I guess the internet itself can be a “marriage agency” too. It is the 21st Century after all.  :-\

Title: Re: Any differences between Ukrainian and Russian women?
Post by: SmartJAzzInOdessa on 20:27 24-Feb-2008
Yep, I'm all for virtual networking, however, I'm not for catalogs of women.  I know people who have worked for these agencies, and who have participated in their services.  They have a set of translators on hand, who translate the letters, which means that something could be easily changed, and as I've heard, often is.  I've also known a few girls who came to America through such companies, and many of them came here not knowing a lick of English.  Now how can two people continue a relationship not even knowing a common language?  There is a fine line between healthy internet dating sites and dirty marriage agencies.  I'm all for internet dating sites, but I'm not for greedy business men exploiting language barriers, the population difference in Ukraine/Russia, or the shady transactions that go on there.  Can you really put marriage agencies on the same map as eharmony.com and such sites?  One is a social network, one is a catalog.  Let's also not forget about the underlying intentions of many of those women... that is, to gain access to a Western country.  Come on, how many 19 year olds are really keeping their romantic options open for people up to 60 years old, and not have different motives?  And let's also not forget that many of the men (not all) are those men who have issues of their own to deal with and can't find a girl in their own country, and many of these problems (which could be abuse, anger, financial, or fidelity issues) won't appear until after that girl is already in another country.  The two aren't even comparable....
Title: Re: Any differences between Ukrainian and Russian women?
Post by: Claus on 20:35 24-Feb-2008
Yep Ray

you outline a lot of the issues and problems very well.
However - what's new here, except the technology?  ;)
Title: Re: Any differences between Ukrainian and Russian women?
Post by: SilverBullet on 21:26 24-Feb-2008
Ray, I agree but remember that dating sites are also catalogs of men and women. People post their photo, their age, what they are looking for etc. It is like a “shopping” site looking from one point of view for both men and women but on the other side an efficient way to meet. The advantage is that you can learn something about the other person first. When you meet someone in a bar or a restaurant you don’t know anything else than you see.

The marriage agencies are a business for what it is worth. It is not the girls who say that they are interested in men 21 – 60 years, but often the agencies placing this without the girls knowledge in order to get many letters and interest. More correspondence to translate and paid meetings for the interpreters. If someone wants to move to another country, one need to know the language first. If not someone can get very lonely or too dependent on another person. As for eHarmony, that is also just another catalog. They have not fair rules since they favor men. An American girl I know used the service and she told me that she had to answer all the letters from men, regardless if the man expressing an interest was interesting for her or not. Men did not have to answer letters from women on this site in the same manner.

I hope that women in Ukraine understand and realize that one should only marry a foreign man for the right reasons. Otherwise it is not worth it. I have visited many countries and Ukraine and Russia are good countries. Sometimes it takes people from other countries to see this. I have visited Egypt, Turkey and the UAE with my Ukrainian woman and she told my that she could never live in any of those countries and enjoyed being back in Kyiv after a few weeks of vacation. Those countries are nice to visit but not to live in. They have different and strickt religon and are poor countries for regular people living there. Ukraine is much better. 

Material wealth is not the most important in life. There are women in any country that marry for money. In America we have a good example, Ann Nicole Smith, a girl who recently died of a deadly mixture of drugs, who married in her early twenty’s a Texas billionaire at 80 years old or so. She was a westerner and didn’t have to marry to move to another country, she just married for a lot of money.

As for people with a shady past and various problems, that can be found many places in cyberspace as well as anywhere else in life.

For someone studying psychology, what do fellow students and teachers say about all the marriage agencies in Ukraine? How is it explained that they can exist? What are the opinions about this? The web site for the American Embassy in Kyiv is warning people about the marriage agencies based on so many fraud cases in the past. 

Still there are many happy couples to who have meet via such services too.  :)
Title: Re: For what it is worth
Post by: ecocks on 21:56 24-Feb-2008
I think many of these "marriage agencies" are really dating sites.  Granted they don't have the slick ad copywriters that Yahoo Personals, AOL, eHarmony and others use but it really amounts to the same thing. Personally, I think anyone who looks for a "bride" in a catalog is a bit off their nut to begin with.  I know a couple of guys who have met and married within 2-3 weeks of meeting someone online back in the states.  One is still married, the other regrets it.  Not much different than meeting in a bar and being stupid IMO.

As Mizzus Gump says, "Stupid is as stupid does."
Title: Re: Any differences between Ukrainian and Russian women?
Post by: SmartJAzzInOdessa on 22:58 24-Feb-2008
Yep, you are completely right about the presence of these things in every country, which are simply manifested through different mediums. 

Concerning your question for psych majors, I can't answer it from a psych point of view, but in addition to literature, I also study anthropology and I would say that these agencies exist because of economic reasons, as well as because of the female-male ratio in the CIS countries.  The most common and oldest reason for marriage is economic security as well as gaining kinship ties with another family.  Humans are social creatures and need/want a support system, whether emotionally or economically.  The idea of "love" is only about 500 years old, although most anthropologists agree that it exists, but explain it in different terms.  They do this when looking at couples that marry through mutual consent, and those that marriage by means of arrangement.  First off, arranged marriages typically last longer due to the fact that older members of society can look upon the two people and see divergences/convergences, and they don't get confused with hormones.  :-)  But the coital rate is interesting... In the consentual marriage, the coital rate (For those who aren't native speakers, this is just a fancy term that human sciences gives to the rate of intercourse) starts very high and slowly tapers off.  In the arranged marriage, the coital rate is extremely low and then begins to gradually build.  This suggests that love is real and is developed by time and familiarity.  Now the interesting thing about marriage agencies is that they work a bit counter-productively, well, when a fiancee is coming to America.  A woman or man who doesn't know English is going to be an economic burden, and even then, unfortunately prejudice often keeps people with CIS education working the worst jobs, unless it's IT.  That is, that usually Russian and Ukrainian immigrants either start a business here, or go to college again.  Now, exceptional English skills are necessary for both of these.  Therefore, there is an interesting paradox arising... The moving foreigner has achieved an economic upgrade (in most cases), but the person visiting the agencies gets almost no immediate (or shortly achieved) economic benefit from this, especially if this is in America, where single-income families pretty much don't exist anymore.  However, they keep these sites up because these men aren't looking because of the economics, but because of the innate social instinct of humans.  But this system is extremely bad for the CIS countries, considering that they are some of the very few countries in the world that have decreasing populations.  Not only are they losing a citizen, but they are losing, in essence, women, the birthgivers.  Anthropologically speaking, men go to war because one man in a world full of ten million women could save the human race, but one women with ten million men only birth one child every year.  So although people don't like to think about divorce, many children are not being born now because of the women leaving the country that would have married and had children.  That is, that children, a lot of times, are born acorss multiple marriages, and this chance is now less.  Ideal?  Nope.  But that's my theory, anyway.  :-) 

Ed - Concerning the difference between the agencies and eHarmony, etc. the communication on those sites isn't filtered by translators, and the personal information about the users is filled in only by the users.  The agencies have too much control over the communication, and in general, over the user's life.  Who's to say that some messages don't even get to the right user because a translator feels that the message would be better for someone else, etc.  But no, I'm not against meeting people in the internet, as my current interest and I met through Skype; I was studying Russian, and she was studying English.  I'm all for it, but there are heaps of ways to go about social networking in the internet.  Maybe some people don't have the net, name one person that doesn't have a friend that has the internet.  And I've also noticed that a lot of employers allow their employees to use things like Skype, ICQ, etc. while at work, especially in the IT field, and Ukraine is known for IT workers. 

Speaking of the Gumps, perhaps the most famous quote from that movie could also be used to describe the agencies, "Life is like a box chocolates - you never know what you're going to get."  :-D
Title: Re: Any differences between Ukrainian and Russian women?
Post by: ecocks on 23:27 24-Feb-2008
They are not all filtered through translators though.  That is an over-generalization.  I dated a half dozen off of one site when I first arrived and I know it wasn't setup like that.  From talking with other expats and the women, I have heard of no sites that were working that way although there could certainly be some.  I even talked with one owner of a famous website and am confident that a percentage of them are legitimate operations designed to facilitate international introductions.  There are optional services, some for a fee, while others appear to be more of an honest attempt to help many of the women get started. 

You appear to be correct about the cultural differences though.  I believe it was not routine but certainly a bit more common to marry for financial, stability and security reasons in this region.  I remember one woman telling me she married to avoid being sent to Kazahkistan for her job assignment and she described it as what we back in the states would say was a "marriage of convenience."  A student described to me that her second husband (Ukrainian) was basically selected by her mother from among the single, more settled men in her hometown.  While anecdotal, I have heard this enough that I believe it to be generally true.

But again, while some of them refer to themselves as marriage agencies, I regard them as mainly dating sites.  Just a bit less sophisticated than their western counterparts.  Just as with the western ones, the women appear to have greater or lesser degrees of hopnesty, selectivity, varying goals for their futures and so on based upon their personal objectives (and morals).  That is no worse (or better) than the gal who catches your eye with her figure or enthusiasm  across the smoky barroom floor in your hometown.  If anyone is dumb enough to buy a bride from a catalopg picture, then, "Let the buyer beware!"
Title: Re: Any differences between Ukrainian and Russian women?
Post by: SmartJAzzInOdessa on 01:33 25-Feb-2008
I can agree that perhaps there are some sites that function more as dating sites, but I can't agree that these are counterparts to the Yahoo Personals, or Eharmony, because there are other Russian sites that offer the exact same services, like Знакомства on mail.ru, but one searches "Russian dating sites," one sees the words "Russian Brides" on almost every link, which makes all the difference.  The calling them "brides," they are labeling their women as commodities - brides.  In addition, I can't tell you how many of them, as I look now, say something like "our women are honest and looking for a better life."  Why should one need to even advertise the integrity of his/her company?  Another huge difference in the marriage agencies and the dating sites is that marriage agencies specifically target foreigners, instead of men/women on the homefront.  In fact, most of those sites don't even have links to Russian/Ukrainian translations.  Another huge difference, at least with some of the sites, is that many of those sites make you pay a flat fee for finding your "soul mate" within a 10-day period.  The fact that these sites are typically only available in English, that they have full-time interpreters and translators, that most of them have at least one immigration attorney on staff, that they usually contain a link for "basic Russian," etc. all imply that these sites are not at all set up like dating sites.  How can a couple even date if they live in different countries?  Perhaps some of the girls look at these like dating sites, but the companies' motives are definitely not that of Eharmony or Yahoo Personals, who only seek to give room for introductions... Oh no, these agencies are looking for something far more sordid and inhumane.  To have a site for the purpose of meeting others with possible prospects in the future is one thing, while advertising brides is another.  IMHO.  :-)

-Ray
Title: Re: Any differences between Ukrainian and Russian women?
Post by: ecocks on 05:44 25-Feb-2008
Well, must be looking at different sites and maybe with a different viewpoint as well. 

Title: Re: Any differences between Ukrainian and Russian women?
Post by: P-N on 07:25 25-Feb-2008
I have no objection to any LEGAL means of meeting anyone, internet or otherwsie and again it relates soley to an individuals desire and requirements and supply and demand as in any business.

When I lived in Moscow, I remember when "speed-dating" first arrived and was discussed much on the ExpatRU site at the time.  (I also remember Mattlocks, Packman and others from that site who now post in here).  At the time we generally agreed that it would be a failure in Mosocw and thus it turned out to be.  Is it any more morally wrong than the internet, personaly I think not. 

I have no moral judgement to make about how anyone meets anyone as long as they all treat each other like human beings.

My brother (married only once and still married after 8 years in the UK) refers to marriage as legalised prostitution, as although no doubt love exists, both he and his wife also recognised the financial stability it brought them.

The human desire for other stable human contact must surely go way back to time immemorial when, to survive, "hunting in packs" with a common goal was the only altimatley successful method. Hence tribes would come to fruision and then nations (eventually).  This is obviously very simplistic with regard to the forming of nations as geography etc. etc. also provided natural barriers in many cases.

In summary, to each their own and however you meet "Mr or Mrs Right" it is imaterial..........the fact is you met them!  :)
Title: How do you explain Evhenya Tymoshenko's marriage? The only daughter of the PM.
Post by: SilverBullet on 08:30 25-Feb-2008
This is some old news now but it was intersting to see that the daughter of now Prime Minister Julia Tymoshenko decided to marry a much older foreigner while she was studying in London. There is a 11 year age difference between the two since Evhenya Tymoshenko was 25-years old when she married the 36-year-old Sean Carr in at the Vydubych monastery in Kyiv. Carr, who was earlier an Anglican, was even baptized in one of Kyiv churches.

So the theory doesn't work in this case. There was no social or economic benefits for Evhenya Tymoshenko to marry someone like that since Carr was a small / unknown rock artist in England, had been married before, had a child from the prior marriage, was much older and was not a rich man by any means. Evhenya Tymoshenko on the other side was the closest you can get to "royalty" in Ukraine, and her choice of husband was probably not her mother's first choice. I was surprised she didn't marry a Ukrainian. Her husband even moved to Kyiv with his dogs and a Harley Davidson. 

What makes it a little bit sad is that her new husband has a history of domestic abuse from his prior marriage per court records from the UK. I trust the security force of his new mother-inlaw will take care of him if he misbehaves again :-\  The only person who could gain in economic terms in this marriage was the foreign man, while the upside for the Ukrainian lady was not there at all by such measure ments. Perhaps it just shows that anything is possible in true love.

SB 

 
Title: Re: How do you explain Evhenya Tymoshenko's marriage? The only daughter of the PM.
Post by: P-N on 08:48 25-Feb-2008
This is some old news now but it was intersting to see that the daughter of now Prime Minister Julia Tymoshenko decided to marry a much older foreigner while she was studying in London. There is a 11 year age difference between the two since Evhenya Tymoshenko was 25-years old when she married the 36-year-old Sean Carr in at the Vydubych monastery in Kyiv. Carr, who was earlier an Anglican, was even baptized in one of Kyiv churches.

So the theory doesn't work in this case. There was no social or economic benefits for Evhenya Tymoshenko to marry someone like that since Carr was a small / unknown rock artist in England, had been married before, had a child from the prior marriage, was much older and was not a rich man by any means. Evhenya Tymoshenko on the other side was the closest you can get to "royalty" in Ukraine, and her choice of husband was probably not her mother's first choice. I was surprised she didn't marry a Ukrainian. Her husband even moved to Kyiv with his dogs and a Harley Davidson. 

What makes it a little bit sad is that her new husband has a history of domestic abuse from his prior marriage per court records from the UK. I trust the security force of his new mother-inlaw will take care of him if he misbehaves again :-\  The only person who could gain in economic terms in this marriage was the foreign man, while the upside for the Ukrainian lady was not there at all by such measure ments. Perhaps it just shows that anything is possible in true love.

SB 

 

SB,

I met my good lady in Moscow, despite she is from Ukraine.  Although I may own a business or two, I would not class myself as rich.  My good lady, however, was very well accommodated for by the former USSR as she was unbeaten sword fencing champion for 7 years and certainly as far as "tactile" wealth went with regards to property, cash in the bank etc the former USSR looked after certainly this champion.  (She is sometimes still recognised in the street in Moscow but not here which I find strange). ???  I maybe worth a few $ on paper but she didn't know it when we met, and I decidied to relocate to Moscow to be with her (and latterly to Odessa where all her family live) to be with her. 

I have 2 children from a previous marriage, also I am 9 years older than the wife but I am happy to say I do not have the inclination to beat a woman.

Although independantly I have not benefitted from her wealth, and she from mine, as with all marriage (unless a pre-nup is in place) we have both mutually gained in many ways (not only financially).

I would therefore have to agree that anything IS possible with true love  :) ;D 8)

Can't say the wife is royalty though, even if she is Queen in our home  ::) but there are a few similarities to the above story I guess.
Title: Re: Any differences between Ukrainian and Russian women?
Post by: SilverBullet on 08:57 25-Feb-2008
That was good to hear. I was just trying to make the case that many Ukrainian or Russian women are not fortune seekers at all, they just want to find a good husband. There is a misconception that they just want to leave Ukraine. Expats who decide to settle down with a Russian or Ukrainian wife in their home country are good examples too.  :)
Title: Re: Any differences between Ukrainian and Russian women?
Post by: P-N on 09:02 25-Feb-2008
That was good to hear. I was just trying to make the case that many Ukrainian or Russian women are not fortune seekers at all, they just want to find a good husband. There is a misconception that they just want to leave Ukraine. Expats who decide to settle down with a Russian or Ukrainian wife in their home country are good examples too.  :)

I absolutely agree with you.  My wife likes England alot, but she does not want to live there.  For certain she has no interest in getting a GB Passport.  I know there will always be those who see marriage as a way out of whatever difficulties they percieve or genuinely have, but Ukraine for certain is getting less and less like that in my view.  Saying that it is now easier for a Ukraine to come and go from the country.  Still someway to go to enjoy the ease and freedon with which you and I do it, but definately much, much easier than it was. :)
Title: Re: Any differences between Ukrainian and Russian women?
Post by: SmartJAzzInOdessa on 09:29 25-Feb-2008
I have been misunderstood... Of course not all Ukrainians want to move to Western countries.  And I'm not sure how you met your wives, but again, I was only explaining the existence of marriage agencies that target Westerners as their main audience.  As I mentioned, a lot of men living in those countries (I'm not referring to expats) a lot of times are searching for women in other places because of issues on the homefront.  This is also why there have been some changes in laws concerning these agencies and doing background checks, so in that lies the proof.  But just as those men are searching because of problems on the homefront, the women are too, and it is not at all unheard for a "mail-order bride" to leave the husband after the trail period, at which point she can receive a permanent immigration visa.  Of course there are exceptions to these rules... But let's face it... An 18-year-old has no reason to search those sites looking for men in other countries unless there are motives and desires to live in that country... Hell, an 18-year-old has so much to go through after just finishing school and moving to a university setting.  And let's also not forget the financial requirements to bring a foreign bride to one's homeland... It requires someone who is already settled in a career and financially stable, in other words... not 18, or 19, or 20... And as far as marrying an Englishman, of course there can be much to be said about that from a Marxist point of view.  Correct me if I'm wrong, Englishmen, but your healthcare is much better than that of Ukraine, and free.  I of course don't know from personal experience, but I've seen Michael Moore's Sicko and have spoken with many from there, but this means nothing.  England also has 2.7% inflation rate, as opposed to Ukraine's near-hyperinflation rate that reached 17% in 2007.  Regardless of social status, everyone in Ukraine is losing money, if they aren't keeping it in banks.  There are plenty of other Marxist ways to explain this, but this is one of the biggest.  Anyways, for every issue in the world, there are many different theoretical paradigms that can explain it, each contradicting the other.  :-)  That's the beauty in human sciences! :-)  Anyways, the girls are on there because they want to be, the men are happy to meet them, someone's making money from it, and well, let them do continue, and then deal with the consequences later on, whether good or bad. :-)
Title: Re: Any differences between Ukrainian and Russian women?
Post by: P-N on 10:09 25-Feb-2008
I have been misunderstood... Of course not all Ukrainians want to move to Western countries.  And I'm not sure how you met your wives, but again, I was only explaining the existence of marriage agencies that target Westerners as their main audience.  As I mentioned, a lot of men living in those countries (I'm not referring to expats) a lot of times are searching for women in other places because of issues on the homefront.  This is also why there have been some changes in laws concerning these agencies and doing background checks, so in that lies the proof.  But just as those men are searching because of problems on the homefront, the women are too, and it is not at all unheard for a "mail-order bride" to leave the husband after the trail period, at which point she can receive a permanent immigration visa.  Of course there are exceptions to these rules... But let's face it... An 18-year-old has no reason to search those sites looking for men in other countries unless there are motives and desires to live in that country... Hell, an 18-year-old has so much to go through after just finishing school and moving to a university setting.  And let's also not forget the financial requirements to bring a foreign bride to one's homeland... It requires someone who is already settled in a career and financially stable, in other words... not 18, or 19, or 20... And as far as marrying an Englishman, of course there can be much to be said about that from a Marxist point of view.  Correct me if I'm wrong, Englishmen, but your healthcare is much better than that of Ukraine, and free.  I of course don't know from personal experience, but I've seen Michael Moore's Sicko and have spoken with many from there, but this means nothing.  England also has 2.7% inflation rate, as opposed to Ukraine's near-hyperinflation rate that reached 17% in 2007.  Regardless of social status, everyone in Ukraine is losing money, if they aren't keeping it in banks.  There are plenty of other Marxist ways to explain this, but this is one of the biggest.  Anyways, for every issue in the world, there are many different theoretical paradigms that can explain it, each contradicting the other.  :-)  That's the beauty in human sciences! :-)  Anyways, the girls are on there because they want to be, the men are happy to meet them, someone's making money from it, and well, let them do continue, and then deal with the consequences later on, whether good or bad. :-)

Yes, the English health service is free, but so is the Ukraine Health Service to Ukraines and those nationals with which respective governments have reciprical agreements.  This is definately a fact (as I called the brother-in-law who is a surgeon in one of Odessa's biggest hospitals) before posting.  Yes it is true that if you want to jump the que a few Gr will do it, but that is no different to the private medical care you can buy in the UK in essence.  Granted there maybe a moral difference but in practice it is only a reflection of the two tier system in the UK if you want to spend your money avoiding the Health Service waiting lists.

As for hyperinflation, the UK has had a democracy for a very long time and a reasonably well run ecconomy since the mid 1970's (when it all went horribly wrong!)  Ukraine will get to grips with it and get it down to a sustainable level in due time as Poland did and as the likes of all other emerging democracies have to.

It is also understandable that many still keep their money "under the bed" (and possibly lose money by way of bank interest) as the tax system is poorly managed, bank collapses are still remembered when many lost money when encouraged to put it in the bank and as personal cheques do not exist, Matercard and Visa are the only alternative to cash.  This coupled with the artificially managed UDS being constantly at 5.05 despite the US ecconomy catching a cold recently and all other currencies going up and down like a yoyo in comparison, even the less than intelligent in society may consider if 5.05 will be artificially maintained then keeping their money in cash compaired to the chance of losing it in another bank collapse may be beneficial to them.

As always theories are fine but Ukraine seems to like pragmatism, as one Ukraine friend said to me not long ago, if my water pipes leak, I need someone who can fix it, not someone with a university degree who can write 5 pages of Health and Safety issues on working with hot metal.

Agreed I cannot think of any reason for an 18-20 year old looking for marriage (let alone outside their normal country of residence) unless there are specific drivers to do so, but like you say it's not my problem and not my consequences to deal with  :)
Title: Re: Any differences between Ukrainian and Russian women?
Post by: SmartJAzzInOdessa on 11:26 25-Feb-2008
Yes, it is free in Ukraine as well, but the quality is much worse, and the life expectancy, which has typically been 10 years or more higher than in Ukraine, hints to this.  About hyperinflation... Well, we'll see where it goes.  It was only 12% last year, and five percent is a huge increase.  So as of right now there seem to be no signs of economic improvement.  It's hard to build an economy off of wheat, when you are dependant on other countries for gas and oil... As far as theories are concerned, we're discussing society :-)  Who else is going to fix this leaky pipe, if not a theorist?  Who would have come up with democracy, communism, capitolism, socialism, liberalism, psychology, etc.  ;-)  Hence, human sciences, which is grounded in theory.  And, everyone is a theorist, whether he calls himself one or not.  My point - One can easily find economic incentives behind this marriage.  That's for sure.  But there's nothing wrong with that... Again, economics has always been and always will be the main reason for marriage.  Love is a very, very, very young idea, though I'm not discounting it.  It's a combination of both, IMHO.
Title: Re: Any differences between Ukrainian and Russian women?
Post by: ecocks on 12:24 25-Feb-2008
I have been repeatedly asked by western guys how to avoid the scammers.  I always have advised them to tell their dates they are planning on living here for a few years and maybe another couple of years in Korea or China.  Their reaction ought to give you a couple of clues as to whether it's love or infatuation with your passport/wallet.

While some "scamming" or scheming undoubtedly occurs, I believe the success rate differs little from so-called "normal" marriage success rates for the same reasons.  What is a "normal" marriage anyway?  Does it mean you found your wife on the doorstep of a convent or attending bible study classes?  What really?  With divorce rates approaching 45-50%, why should something like this be any better statistically?  The divorce rate here is pretty damned high and young widows are a bit more common than in the states except maybe for the Vietnam War period.

Death rates are high but life expectancy seems to be climbing.  As affluence grows, quality alternative healthcare operations are growing as well.  My wife and I go to American Medical Center which is as close as I have seen to American quality health care that I am accustomed to.  She seems to be continually surprised at the service, concern, competence and attitude she receives from the staff there.  I have heard too many bad stories from the Ukraine system and a couple of the other private operations.
Title: Re: Any differences between Ukrainian and Russian women?
Post by: SilverBullet on 21:26 25-Feb-2008
Ed, another difference compared to the US or the EU is that women in general marry at a very young age in Ukraine. Most marry before they are 25 and if you are older the locals think there must be something wrong with the person. I have never seen so many young women have children so early either. It is not unusual to be married at 21 and already have children.   

What can be said to be wrong with Ukraine is the corruption and persistent aviodance of paying taxes. How can you expect excellent health care when people and companies don't want to pay fair taxes? There is the concept of "offical pay" and cash payment under the table. Real estate transactions reported below the real sales price etc. Ukraine is a country with rich natural resources and a highley educated work force, but corruption remains the problem robbing the state for much needed income to provide for its citizens. It is the same situation in Russia too and even the Kremlin-based midget recently acknowledged in an intervju with western journalists that it is an area he had not been able to make any progress in during his presidency. S.B.
Title: Re: Any differences between Ukrainian and Russian women?
Post by: SmartJAzzInOdessa on 21:45 25-Feb-2008
This can also be explained economically.  :-)  For example, Ira, my girls in Ukraine, has a master's degree in a technical field, but earns less than $200 a month, which hardly even covers the cost of a flat in Ukraine.  This is the difference between a collectivist society (and corruption also exists because of the collectivist nature of Ukraine and CIS countries), and an individualist society. 
Title: Re: Any differences between Ukrainian and Russian women?
Post by: P-N on 08:26 26-Feb-2008
Ed, another difference compared to the US or the EU is that women in general marry at a very young age in Ukraine. Most marry before they are 25 and if you are older the locals think there must be something wrong with the person. I have never seen so many young women have children so early either. It is not unusual to be married at 21 and already have children.   

What can be said to be wrong with Ukraine is the corruption and persistent aviodance of paying taxes. How can you expect excellent health care when people and companies don't want to pay fair taxes? There is the concept of "offical pay" and cash payment under the table. Real estate transactions reported below the real sales price etc. Ukraine is a country with rich natural resources and a highley educated work force, but corruption remains the problem robbing the state for much needed income to provide for its citizens. It is the same situation in Russia too and even the Kremlin-based midget recently acknowledged in an intervju with western journalists that it is an area he had not been able to make any progress in during his presidency. S.B.

100% concur SB.  It is not only Ukraine women who marry early either.  One of my Moldovan guys (23 years old) has recently got married to a Moldovan girl who has just turned 18.  I stated that it is definately outside the norm in the UK (for the girl I mean) but he told me it was common in Moldova also for many women to be married at 18 or 19 years old.  He knows I have 2 daughters 20 and 18 and I told him I don't expect them to be married before they are 24, 25 years old because they want to finish university and have a few years of a career behind them before they took such a step (and therefore some financial independence).  He viewed this as a very strange concept.

I can only therefore put it down (not to individual desires) but the fact that in Ukraine and Moldova (and probably Belarussia and Georgia) that a "career" for a woman is still some distance behind the EU and USA expectations and the view of the man being the "bread-winner" for want of a better expression, is still expected.  Obviously this is not true in all walks of life (look at Ukraines current PM and several ministers) but it still seems to be more generally accepted as the way to go.

As western influence expands in the former USSR and eventually the virgin democracies get to grips with the historical and social "hangovers" they have been left with during the time of the USSR, it will be interesting to see if this trend remains constant or declines.

As for real estate tax avoidance during purchase, I have no first hand experience of under reporting of price to avoid taxation (although I am certain that it happens), but I know for a FACT that as many of the "agents" even in the biggest national firms will offer to carry out the transaction on a personal basis (obviously in cash as all real estate transactions here take place in cash) for 50% of what the company "commision" would be.  Then the company could not declare the cash sum anyway (even if it wanted to) for tax purposes as they are unaware that an employee has "renegotiated" everything behind their back for personal gain not corporate gain.  These people obviously never report such transactions, the buyers pay 50% less commision and the sellers still get the price they are asking for.  This situation is compounded by the fact that even the biggest real estate companies do not even work regionally but by individual office so policing their employees activities is almost impossible as they are all fighting each other on an office by office basis let alone region or nationally.

I imagine the Inland Reveune or IRS here have the same powers as in our respective native countries, but no doubt they too are underpaid and a few $ will keep an investigating official "quiet" with respect to these activities not only in real estate but throughout every other walk of life here.

To raise the revenues to better place education, health etc at some point the powers that be will have to substancially increase the incomes of the police, doctors, dentists, judges, tax collectors, customs (the list goes on ad-nauseum) and afterwards publically jail those who take bribes to the point whereby taking a bribe is no longer financially worth it in the long run.  This of course takes money (and a lot of it) as well as the public supporting the initiative and being prepared to abide by the law and not offer "incentives" to look the other way.   I would suggest the latter is much much harder to do.
Title: Re: Any differences between Ukrainian and Russian women?
Post by: ecocks on 11:12 26-Feb-2008
Not sure what marrying age has to do with this exactly.  It seems (to me) to be more of a symptom than a cause.   More to the point is the overall imbalance of the sexes, still roughly 85 men for every 100 women, especially in the over-30 age group.  Undoubtedly, the reality of age versus income and security plays a bigger part in this economy than it does in a more stable, open one like England or the US.   A wider range of age is certainly more common in this area of the world.  I don't know about Nik's experience (since he and his wife have the same age difference as my wife and I do) but I hear all the time from western guys, «why didn't you snag a younger woman?» and even my wife/sisters-in-law occasionally still question why I am not interested in younger women.   When asked by the guys, I find the question a bit insulting and indicating several character traits/psychoses and insecurities of the questioner.

There are so many problems, the REAL question is, «where do you start trying to interrupt the cycle to effect a long-term improvement?»

I see that the younger generation is changing and adapting more rapidly to the transitions occuring.  Common, since youth is still in «training mode» and naturally is more flexible and accepting of change.  One interesting area to watch involves their attitude towards continuing education and training.  The concept here is that education is continuous until time to work, then it is over.  Setting aside for a moment the implication of leaving out an entire generation (or two) from the educational process, the students are shocked to learn how difficult it is to go straight from the bachelor's degree to seeking an MBA.  Most schools expect a minimum of 2 years of professional work experience AFTER graduation.  Some give preference to those with 5 years and higher.  My step-son dearly wants an American MBA but has become despondent that he will be expected to work for 2+ years before even applying for admission. He simply doesn't understand how he will ever be able to complete a program since he expects to be working, married and starting a family by age 25.  Stopping your career or even commiting to a part-time, night school program for three years is an alien thought in this area of the world. 

As for that set-aside group, I had a call yesterday from another teacher asking how to cope with increasing content demands for business training, NOT Business English development.  The middle generation wants the information but is unsure how to get it and only see their language teachers as an option.

I suspect the women will get a major headstart on advanced degrees due to their structure here.  The system subsidizes the mother for up to 6 years after the birth so, if the husband is working a decent job, the woman can easily go back to school in her mid-20's.  Considering their maternity leave policies here, I am surprised the birth rate isn't climbing faster. 
Title: Re: Any differences between Ukrainian and Russian women?
Post by: P-N on 12:00 26-Feb-2008
Not sure what marrying age has to do with this exactly.  It seems (to me) to be more of a symptom than a cause.   More to the point is the overall imbalance of the sexes, still roughly 85 men for every 100 women, especially in the over-30 age group.  Undoubtedly, the reality of age versus income and security plays a bigger part in this economy than it does in a more stable, open one like England or the US.   A wider range of age is certainly more common in this area of the world.  I don't know about Nik's experience (since he and his wife have the same age difference as my wife and I do) but I hear all the time from western guys, «why didn't you snag a younger woman?» and even my wife/sisters-in-law occasionally still question why I am not interested in younger women.   When asked by the guys, I find the question a bit insulting and indicating several character traits/psychoses and insecurities of the questioner.

There are so many problems, the REAL question is, «where do you start trying to interrupt the cycle to effect a long-term improvement?»

I see that the younger generation is changing and adapting more rapidly to the transitions occuring.  Common, since youth is still in «training mode» and naturally is more flexible and accepting of change.  One interesting area to watch involves their attitude towards continuing education and training.  The concept here is that education is continuous until time to work, then it is over.  Setting aside for a moment the implication of leaving out an entire generation (or two) from the educational process, the students are shocked to learn how difficult it is to go straight from the bachelor's degree to seeking an MBA.  Most schools expect a minimum of 2 years of professional work experience AFTER graduation.  Some give preference to those with 5 years and higher.  My step-son dearly wants an American MBA but has become despondent that he will be expected to work for 2+ years before even applying for admission. He simply doesn't understand how he will ever be able to complete a program since he expects to be working, married and starting a family by age 25.  Stopping your career or even commiting to a part-time, night school program for three years is an alien thought in this area of the world. 

As for that set-aside group, I had a call yesterday from another teacher asking how to cope with increasing content demands for business training, NOT Business English development.  The middle generation wants the information but is unsure how to get it and only see their language teachers as an option.

I suspect the women will get a major headstart on advanced degrees due to their structure here.  The system subsidizes the mother for up to 6 years after the birth so, if the husband is working a decent job, the woman can easily go back to school in her mid-20's.  Considering their maternity leave policies here, I am surprised the birth rate isn't climbing faster. 

An interesting point about your step-son becoming despondent.  Don't know if you read the thread I posted yesterday about distance learning degrees (as I have an employee interested) during which I found some (probable although I don't know for sure) scam about life experience degrees.  Having considered it a little further there can be little distinction between those with, for example, 20 years experience in retail running a successful business but not having any "letters" after their name and obtaining such a degree (if they actually exist) and someone who is given an "honourary degree" by a university because they too have succeeded in their field of endevour (without a degree) and are then given one by a "recognised" provider.

Your step-son is looking at education from the perspective of the young and never employed (let alone CIS perspective).  As an employer (which obviously I am both here and in England) irrespective of a degree/MBA/PhD I would look for experience first, then the qualifications.  Depending on the specifics and dynamics of the company, the fact you hold a degree or MBA can be little more than a door opener to an interview.  Alternatively without one, the door may be closed firmly in your face, even if you are the best candidate for the job with the experience the employer requires.....in other words you don't even get through the papersift by the "Personnel Department".  (Don't get me started on Personnel Departments (including my own)).

I can only speak for my profession and as an employer.  In my profession, there are certain positions in which you are expected to have a degree, ie. structural engineering, civil engineering for example and it has certain implications on insurances which must be held should there ever be a claim against you etc.  However most of the graduates we take on are then "mentored" by guys with much experience, many of whom don't have the letters after their name but have worked they way up from the bottom over 20 - 25 years and know all there is to know (even more than me  ::) :o).  Who would you take, the boss of a "Fortune 500" company without letters after his name or a MBA with little or no experience?

Higher education is a ticket to ride, not the ride itself.  It maybe you have to stop and get another ticket if you go a certain way but as always with the young, they don't see it this way.  My daughters are no exception, expecting big $ when they graduate with no experience in the work place and no matter how much I tell them, there is no way of realigning their thought patterns.  Unfortunatley for both they will be in for a big shock soon.

It will remain to be seen if the young mothers here return to education, (as you say it is an alien thought in this part of the world) in the immediate term I very much doubt it because it is not what is expected.  As the western influence expands in the next 10 years or more then I would hope that it happens, but again in 10 years time will their (and society's) expections have changed sufficiently not to marry and have children so young in the first place?

As for more increasing demand for Business Training than Business English.....you going to start teaching Malsow's Hierachy Of Needs and the like as well Ed?   ;) :D

Maybe you should drop Mr the Kremlin-based midget a quick e-myther stating that Russia should also provide free higher education to mothers during their time away from work as well as the financial insentives offered.......he is after all worried about the drop in birth rate  ;) :D and the long term benefits to society would be immence.

It will be interesting to watch as time goes by.

As for exchanging my beloved for a "younger model", like you Ed, I ain't for changin'  :)
Title: Re: Any differences between Ukrainian and Russian women?
Post by: SilverBullet on 07:16 27-Feb-2008
A wider range of age is certainly more common in this area of the world.  I don't know about Nik's experience (since he and his wife have the same age difference as my wife and I do) but I hear all the time from western guys, «why didn't you snag a younger woman?» and even my wife/sisters-in-law occasionally still question why I am not interested in younger women.   When asked by the guys, I find the question a bit insulting and indicating several character traits/psychoses and insecurities of the questioner. 

I think the western guys you are refering to have lost their sense of reality. How long do they think a marriage will last if they marry someone half their age or more? They better have a bullet proof prenuptial because they might need it sooner than later  ::) They are just out of touch with reality  :o. Tey don't realize that preferences and priorities change by age. Can you imagine someone starting to plan his retirement while his miss is about to plan taking a second education in a new western country? It works better when the age difference is more within reasonable limits. I am not an expert myself though and I am sure there are some happy exceptions to this.  :-\ 
Title: With CIS education in the USA - good jobs can be found
Post by: SilverBullet on 22:51 16-Mar-2008
A woman or man who doesn't know English is going to be an economic burden, and even then, unfortunately prejudice often keeps people with CIS education working the worst jobs, unless it's IT.  That is, that usually Russian and Ukrainian immigrants either start a business here, or go to college again.  Now, exceptional English skills are necessary for both of these.  Therefore, there is an interesting paradox arising... The moving foreigner has achieved an economic upgrade (in most cases), but the person visiting the agencies gets almost no immediate (or shortly achieved) economic benefit from this, especially if this is in America, where single-income families pretty much don't exist anymore.

Ray, you posted this a while ago but I wanted to comment on this. You are absolutely correct that when someone wants to move to a foreign country they need to learn the language. Without knowing the language it will be difficult to become integrated in a foreign country.

As for CIS education's value abroad, you should know that someone with medical education, dentist and nursing will be in high demand in the USA and do well as soon as they learn the language. IT of course will always be in demand, but so also engineering and mechanical. Ukrainian mechanics are know to be very good. Many decide to add a second degree in the USA in addition to their CIS education making it easier. Still if someone doesn't have a specific education and speak poorly English, it will be difficult to find a good job of course.

As for two income familes, your observation is true many places in major urban centra with expensive homes, but in less expensive areas like the Midwest, Texas, Oregon, etc. many can manage to live on one income. Most men who marry a foreigner are not doing it for economic motives but for love. A man will always have to support a wife as the case in many countries.  :)
Title: Re: Any differences between Ukrainian and Russian women?
Post by: AlexMc on 13:02 17-Apr-2008
I have bought an interesting eBook "Finding a Ukrainian Bride" from a company calling itself Ukrainian Seduction.  Their e-mail is seduction@ukr.net

The book is awesome and great fun to read!
Title: Re: Any differences between Ukrainian and Russian women?
Post by: ecocks on 14:51 17-Apr-2008
Most of us seem to have solved this problem already but maybe it will help some poor sod (*) who has trouble stumbling down the street, tripping over every crack in the sidewalk, falling down steps and walking into posts.

* -  ;D  Hey!  :o  How about that!?!    Huh!?!   :o   How many Americans EVER used the word "sod" in a sentence huh?   ???  Well, excepting those who do landscaping and gravedigging for a living at least......     :-\
Title: Re: Any differences between Ukrainian and Russian women?
Post by: Carlusha on 15:04 17-Apr-2008
Most of us seem to have solved this problem already but maybe it will help some poor sod (*) who has toruble stumbling down the street, tripping over every crack in the sidewalk, falling down steps and walking into posts.

* -  ;D  Hey!  :o  How about that!?!    Huh!?!   :o   How many Americans EVER used the word "sod" in a sentence huh?   ???  Well, excepting those who do landscaping and gravedigging for a living at least......     :-\


Well, for me, Ed, your choice of phraseology is all due to your English ancestry kicking in when you have been humoured by some poor soul (aka sod) who needs hand holding when looking for arm candy.

Title: Re: Any differences between Ukrainian and Russian women?
Post by: ecocks on 15:12 17-Apr-2008
Q. Why did the American cross the pond?

A. To gain cultural understanding and stimulate intellectual development through an in-depth exhumation, er...uh examination that is, of their ancestral heritage.  Yes, as my ancestors began timidly stepping forth from their caves, throwing rocks at large-fanged carnivores, learning the mysteries of fire, painting their bodies blue, pulling swords from stones, inventing chastity belts, rebuilding caves from blocks of stones and retreating into them when danger threa......ah yeah, what he said.

                                                           ::)
Title: Re: Any differences between Ukrainian and Russian women?
Post by: Carlusha on 18:56 17-Apr-2008
Ed, that was superb! Can I be amongst the first to read your long-awaited autobiography?   :)
Title: Re: Any differences between Ukrainian and Russian women?
Post by: SilverBullet on 01:43 29-Apr-2008
I have bought an interesting eBook "Finding a Ukrainian Bride" from a company calling itself Ukrainian Seduction.  Their e-mail is seduction@ukr.net

The book is awesome and great fun to read!
What is the genre of the book? Humor? Facts? A guide book? Why would anyone need a book? Just walk down the main streets in any city and you will be blended with so much beauty  :) Seriously, the two major hazards in Ukraine are "crazy" drivers ready to run you over in the pedestrian crosswalks (or the lack of them) / sidewalks or you are getting a serious neck burn with so many head turners every where. I guess only visitors and expats notice this, the local men take it for granted being surrounded by so many beautiful and smart women every day  ::)   
Title: Re: Any differences between Ukrainian and Russian women?
Post by: Ceasefire on 23:25 12-May-2008
I can agree that perhaps there are some sites that function more as dating sites, but I can't agree that these are counterparts to the Yahoo Personals, or Eharmony, because there are other Russian sites that offer the exact same services, like Знакомства on mail.ru,

I've used dating sites in the UK and have been curious about those in Ukraine and to get around the Bride sites I think it would be best to use google translate to access the site instead of the English route the bride sites target. The only difficulty is trying to creae a profile when you're a beginner to the written language. LovePlanet.ua and Flirt.com.ua appear to be the most popular genuine dating sites.
Title: Re: Any differences between Ukrainian and Russian women?
Post by: 3000ftup on 00:10 13-May-2008
Hey, save yourself a lot of aggrevation... money... and time!!!  All of the sites are really a money making thing.  How can you think you will find real love from a photo, and a juiced up catchy message... followed by more unrealistic expectations!!! and going to meet some girl that you have no real idea about, and very well may look totally different from her glamour shots.  I am trying to say, it is possible, but the odds are way against you.
If you are serious to try things, learn some Russian language, consider to try a month or two rent an apartment, see if you like the lifestyle, and get to know and appreciate real people there, and let things happen naturally... and for all the right reasons...  and that is when you will have a real shot of a great connection.
Just my humble point of view... for what that is worth   ;D
Title: Re: Any differences between Ukrainian and Russian women?
Post by: SilverBullet on 07:04 14-May-2008
Hey, save yourself a lot of aggrevation... money... and time!!!  All of the sites are really a money making thing.  How can you think you will find real love from a photo, and a juiced up catchy message... followed by more unrealistic expectations!!!
The Ukraine dating sites are really no different in concept than many US dating sites like Yahoo Personals, etc. with stale pictures and fake information. User there also have glamor shots but they are 10 years old photos and you have no clue who you really correspond with until you meet in person. A dating site is just a place to establish contact, then you have to meet in person and take it form there. If you spend some money on this along the way, what is the big deal.

For those interested the very best dating site in Ukraine: www.Anastasiaweb.com (http://www.Anastasiaweb.com) Looking at the ladies on this site you will never think of any other women in this world. The shots are glamor shots but the ladies look just as good in real life too and YES they all do exisit - there is no scams on this site.  :)   
Title: Re: Any differences between Ukrainian and Russian women?
Post by: SmartJAzzInOdessa on 07:16 14-May-2008
I just have to throw in my two cents here.  Isn't there something disturbing, awfully curious and perhaps dehumanizing about the term "mail order bride," which is what pops up when viewing the above mentioned site.   ::)

Title: Re: Any differences between Ukrainian and Russian women?
Post by: ecocks on 07:22 14-May-2008
There is a difference between mail order brides and dating sites.  Owners advertise to what they think is the market, many of the women are normal.

In the new age of computers and virtual presences, the Internet is just one more way to meet people - women, men, whatever floats your boat.  Personally, I see nothing wrong with using the Internet to meet (and even initially greet) potential dating partners.  How is it any different than seeing a gal across a crowded, smoky bar and walking over to ask her to dance?  She could be married, a hooker, a drug addict, a wiccan high priestess, whatever.  When I first got here, I used the Internet to make some contacts, weeded out the scammers and others who were on the take as best I could, began dating one or two at a time and looked for one I found interesting and worth developing a relationship with.  I ended up married to her.  So, worked for me.

If you want to go cruise bars, frequent church events (rare in Ukraine), hang around the cosmetics counter at TSUM or wait to meet a co-worker/student/friend of a friend or something then best of luck to you.  I see the odds as roughly equal and maybe a bit better screening intelligently off the Internet, if you have your expectations in hand and are thinking with reason anyway.

If you are so incredibly shallow that you pick long-term partners based solely upon their looks and something they put in a few emails, well, you deserve what you get.

Knock yourself out
Title: Re: Any differences between Ukrainian and Russian women?
Post by: SilverBullet on 07:30 14-May-2008
I just have to throw in my two cents here.  Isn't there something disturbing, awfully curious and perhaps dehumanizing about the term "mail order bride," which is what pops up when viewing the above mentioned site.   ::)


I think that term has long time ago lost its original meaning. It is an outdated term used by older generation. If a man in California are in contact with a woman in Utah using Yahoo Personal, then I guess the lady in Utah would also technically be a "mail order bride" Or if I apply for a job online with a company - would that make me a mail order employee? Everything happens in cyber space these days, you find your special car for sale on-line, you do your shopping there at the best prices, you shop for vacation at the best fares, you find your special someone online, you download your music and videos, I can just not imagine how someone can live without cyberspace these days  ;D ;D ;D   
Title: Re: Any differences between Ukrainian and Russian women?
Post by: SmartJAzzInOdessa on 07:39 14-May-2008
Kudoz, Ed! 

SB, I think that this term has a special meaning in CIS countries (as well as other key countries), as it refers to men who, as Ed points out, exchange a few emails and pictures, meet once on ten day trip set up by the marriage agency, "fall in love" and start the fiance visa process.  You won't find any "dating sites" in the West that use such a term, as the goals of both the business, and often times, the woman, are different.  But I think most of this was covered in another discussion along the same lines as this one.  The term is used in countries that have a large population of people wanting to move to the West, and the sites typically target Westerners, which is why they are almost ALWAYS in English, and often without a Russian translation, such as the above mentioned site, which offers it only in English, German and French. :)

  You're completely right about "shopping" on the net.  And I have no problems with calling a book from Amazon.com a "mail order book."  ;D
Title: Re: Any differences between Ukrainian and Russian women?
Post by: SmartJAzzInOdessa on 08:50 14-May-2008
Oh, this is that "other discussion." :)

I thought we were in the new discussion in "Q&A."  :) 
Title: Re: Any differences between Ukrainian and Russian women?
Post by: rjm on 10:02 14-May-2008
For the record I hate the whole practice and know a girl that used to work for a Marriage agency about 3 years ago and told me it was the most dishonest business you could ever imagine from top to bottom, she said that she didnt know who was the more dishonest the men or the girls or the agency!

I remember when I first came here 5 years ago, there would be 2 pages every week in the Kyiv Post with these agencies and numerous people walking up and down Kreshatyk all day with sandwich boards.

I looked in last weeks issue and there were only 2 ads and I never see these people in the centre now with their sandwich boards so I would suggest that this whole grubby business is in its dying days!

I think I saw an article about a year ago in Kyiv Post that said that many were closing as they were finding it hard to find girls that were interested in meeting foreign men for marriage now!

Title: Re: Any differences between Ukrainian and Russian women?
Post by: SilverBullet on 07:11 15-May-2008
I think I saw an article about a year ago in Kyiv Post that said that many were closing as they were finding it hard to find girls that were interested in meeting foreign men for marriage now!


To all bachelors out there - you guys need to hurry up if the girls are loosing interest ::) Seriously, I like Ed's take on this - a 50/50 chance via internet compared to other avenues and it worked for him so why argue with success.

By the way, Anastasiaweeb.com got kicked out of Belarus. The president in Minsk are concerend about young women leaving the country and fear a shortfall of eligible bachelorettes in Belarus one day  ??? ::) :o. Women in Moscow and St Petersburg have already lost interest in Western men. Life is just getting better in Moscow.  ;D
Title: Re: Any differences between Ukrainian and Russian women?
Post by: ecocks on 10:35 15-May-2008
An idea is born.
Title: Re: Any differences between Ukrainian and Russian women?
Post by: SmartJAzzInOdessa on 10:43 15-May-2008
Here's MY idea!!

With the current weak US economy, the EU is becoming more and more desirable!!  I propose a marriage agency for American women and men seeking to go to the EU!!  :D :D :D
Title: Re: Any differences between Ukrainian and Russian women?
Post by: SilverBullet on 09:36 18-May-2008
Here's MY idea!!

With the current weak US economy, the EU is becoming more and more desirable!!  I propose a marriage agency for American women and men seeking to go to the EU!!  :D :D :D
Ray, Don't get carried away now - the majority of Americans are doing just fine. It is not like it is a financial meltdown here for the ordinary guy  :) It is a crisis for all sub-prime borrowers who could not afford a home in the first place. People with ordinary jobs - and they are plenty around still with low unemployment rates - are still enjoying a higher materialistic standard of living than in the EU. Americans have all the toys.  :)  Americans will go to South America on vacation this summer instead of Europe. The USD has strenghtened 20% against the Argentine Peso and Buenos Aires is a very nice place.

Send all Ukrainian women to the USA! We need them here. They are just the best but back to the topic of this thread - any differences between Russian and Ukrainianian women? - perhaps the photos say it all?  SB
Title: Re: Any differences between Ukrainian and Russian women?
Post by: ecocks on 09:51 18-May-2008
Hey, my wife was traned to disassemble (sounds better in context than strip or fieldstrip) and clean AK's and Makarovs.  I'm thinking with minimal retraining she can handle my CZ, S&W, Browning and Sig.  Also predicting shorter learning curve if I ever decide to buy a Colt or look-alike AR.  Never really liked the AK knock-offs.
Title: Re: Any differences between Ukrainian and Russian women?
Post by: Vera on 10:09 18-May-2008
For your information I would like to add that all guys and girls, who were in high school (up until mid 90th),were trained to assemble and disassemble AKs. It was part of the curriculum. I am not kidding!!:))
Title: Re: Any differences between Ukrainian and Russian women?
Post by: ecocks on 10:20 18-May-2008
Yes, Vera, we know.  That is what I was talking about.

"Let's see, what will I do today?"

"Hmm, I know, make eclairs, paint a watercolor and, oh - might as well clean Ed's CZ after last night's range trip.!
Title: Re: Any differences between Ukrainian and Russian women?
Post by: Vera on 10:25 18-May-2008
The trick was not only to assemble and disassemble, but to do it in a very short time.
The ones who managed to do in like less than 30 seconds got an 'A"   ;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: Any differences between Ukrainian and Russian women?
Post by: ecocks on 10:29 18-May-2008
Well I didn't check her transcript before deciding to marry her.  Just settled for her, "I can do that." response when I got to that question in the initial interview.
Title: Re: Any differences between Ukrainian and Russian women?
Post by: Vera on 10:31 18-May-2008
Well, what I know for sure about the difference between Russian and Ukrainian girls (And I know, as I used to go to Moscow often) is that Russian girls swear like drunken sailors while Ukrainian almost never do.
Title: Re: Any differences between Ukrainian and Russian women?
Post by: Vera on 10:43 18-May-2008
Quote
The USD has strengthened 20% against the Argentine Peso and Buenos Aires is a very nice place.

Oh, here is some useful information, that is why I like this forum!! Makes a lot of sense. Always wanted to learn to tango :)))))
Title: Re: Any differences between Ukrainian and Russian women?
Post by: P-N on 16:55 18-May-2008
More of a salsa man myself V  ;)
Title: Re: Any differences between Ukrainian and Russian women?
Post by: SilverBullet on 05:55 19-May-2008
Quote
The USD has strengthened 20% against the Argentine Peso and Buenos Aires is a very nice place.

Oh, here is some useful information, that is why I like this forum!! Makes a lot of sense. Always wanted to learn to tango :)))))

Belly dancing is popular in Ukraine. Many are taking classes and have it as a hobby. Most of the times I have come across women in Odessa or Sevastopol who are into belly dancing. While in Turkey 2 years ago, I got to see it first hand in the home land of the belly dancing, but I must say the Ukrainian women looked better.  ;D Needles to say, I was there with my lady so I could not watch it too much.  ::) Dancing with the Stars has been popular in Kyiv, try a lesson at the famous dance school in Kyiv - they offer tango.