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News and Views => European Politics => Topic started by: MWDabbs on 00:59 13-Feb-2013

Title: Thoughts on the news from the Vatican
Post by: MWDabbs on 00:59 13-Feb-2013
Curious -- what everyone thinks about a) the Pope's announcement to resign and b) the Vatican getting struck by lightning the same day? 

Neither happens frequently.  The lightning so far has been determined to be real, still being investigated. 
Title: Re: Thoughts on the news from the Vatican
Post by: David Rochlin on 06:57 13-Feb-2013
He was never the best loved of Popes, and so will be among the least missed.  Perhaps the lightning and his resignation show that he does have a good or bad political sense, depending upon whether the lightning struck after or before the resignation.
Title: Re: Thoughts on the news from the Vatican
Post by: kyivkpic on 08:57 13-Feb-2013
He was probably about to be exposed for diddling little boys.
Title: Re: Thoughts on the news from the Vatican
Post by: Fraucha on 10:22 13-Feb-2013
The lightening was to recharge the crappy batteries in his pace maker.
Title: Re: Thoughts on the news from the Vatican
Post by: fionnain on 15:15 13-Feb-2013
Papal resignation is a good idea.  If he can no longer do the job he should call it quits. 

I believe that he was a compromise candidate because he was already very old when first elected.  Everyone knew he would not be Pope for a very long time due to his age. 
Title: Re: Thoughts on the news from the Vatican
Post by: P-N on 15:41 13-Feb-2013
None of Catholic faithful should see the Pope's resignation as a bad idea, as to do so would put the entire concept of papal infallibility into doubt - a cornerstone of the Vatican.  :D

As he is still in post until 28th February, his decision as the current Pope therefore must be infallible - On 1st March when he is no longer Pope, then possibly, that decision then may be open to scrutiny by the devout Catholic flock.  ;)
Title: Re: Thoughts on the news from the Vatican
Post by: lordtiberius on 19:53 13-Feb-2013
He was probably about to be exposed for diddling little boys.

slander much?
Title: Re: Thoughts on the news from the Vatican
Post by: lordtiberius on 19:54 13-Feb-2013
None of Catholic faithful should see the Pope's resignation as a bad idea, as to do so would put the entire concept of papal infallibility into doubt - a cornerstone of the Vatican.  :D

As he is still in post until 28th February, his decision as the current Pope therefore must be infallible - On 1st March when he is no longer Pope, then possibly, that decision then may be open to scrutiny by the devout Catholic flock.  ;)

the pope is only infallible when it comes to moral teaching not things like auto parts or astrophysics
Title: Re: Thoughts on the news from the Vatican
Post by: P-N on 20:09 13-Feb-2013
the pope is only infallible when it comes to moral teaching not things like auto parts or astrophysics

And there is no moral teaching in the ability and desire to relinquish power for the greater good - despite the fact it is more than 600 years since a previous Pope resigned?
Title: Re: Thoughts on the news from the Vatican
Post by: lordtiberius on 20:46 13-Feb-2013
the pope is only infallible when it comes to moral teaching not things like auto parts or astrophysics

And there is no moral teaching in the ability and desire to relinquish power for the greater good - despite the fact it is more than 600 years since a previous Pope resigned?

I am sorry.  I don't understand your point.  Can you please elaborate?
Title: Re: Thoughts on the news from the Vatican
Post by: kyivkpic on 21:02 13-Feb-2013
He was probably about to be exposed for diddling little boys.

slander much?

It would be a real shocker if a high ranking Catholic priest were indicted for such a thing or concealing it, wouldn't it?

He gives me the creeps, and how can anyone be taken seriously who dresses like that and expects people to refer to him as "His Excellency" and kiss his ring? What century are we in?
Title: Re: Thoughts on the news from the Vatican
Post by: fionnain on 21:10 13-Feb-2013
I am trying to figure out why there is any controversy in the Pope resigning on 28 February?  The fact that it has not been done in approximately 600 years should not matter.  This man is old and has admitted that he does not have the strength to perform his Papal duties.  I think he is being unselfish in relinguishing power and authroity. 

As to Papal infalibility, it is simply a dogma of the Catholic Church that was first defined in the First Vatican Counsel that met in 1869-70 and before that time had never been defended.  It means that the Pope is preserved from the possiblity of error when, in the exercise of his office as Shephard and teacher of all Christians, in virtue of his supreme apostolic authority, he defines a doctrine concerning faith or morals to be held by the whole church. 

The dogma is very limited and does not mean that the Pope is right about everything.  Essentially, he is the Supreme Court in matters of Church Doctrine and morality, a court of one of last resort on Earth.  He decides what will be accepted as formal beliefs in the Roman Catholic Church.

Constructive critism is not a bad thing, but denegrating the Pope with unfounded comments that he is a pedofile serves no purpose but to make this forum look bad and hurts everyone. 

The thread was started to seek thoughts and comments about the first papal resignation in more than half a millenium.  I hope that it can stay on track. 
Title: Re: Thoughts on the news from the Vatican
Post by: P-N on 21:11 13-Feb-2013
the pope is only infallible when it comes to moral teaching not things like auto parts or astrophysics

And there is no moral teaching in the ability and desire to relinquish power for the greater good - despite the fact it is more than 600 years since a previous Pope resigned?

I am sorry.  I don't understand your point.  Can you please elaborate?

The point is that there can be an inferred moral and ethical lesson from this act of voluntary resignation from an otherwise powerful office/job for life (or rather until death over the past 600 years anyway) - Particularly in an era of falling dictators and rising authoritarianism during his time in office - and therefore this decision can possibly be seen to be covered by papal infallibility by those who may want to stretch matters (and no doubt there will be some) - as I (somewhat sarcastically) pointed out in my previous post to which you responded with some nonsense about auto parts and astrophysics.

Anyway, returning to the OP and knowing MW Dabbs as I do, I suspect he was subtly attempting to see if the papal resignation and the lightening strike on the Vatican the same day, would have somebody raise the issue of the Prophecies of Malachi (if indeed they are rightly attributed to Malachi of course).
Title: Re: Thoughts on the news from the Vatican
Post by: lordtiberius on 21:16 13-Feb-2013
I am sorry.  But conversation is just not possible without insults or an apology for said insults. God Bless You.
Title: Re: Thoughts on the news from the Vatican
Post by: fionnain on 21:24 13-Feb-2013
He was probably about to be exposed for diddling little boys.

slander much?

It would be a real shocker if a high ranking Catholic priest were indicted for such a thing or concealing it, wouldn't it?

He gives me the creeps, and how can anyone be taken seriously who dresses like that and expects people to refer to him as "His Excellency" and kiss his ring? What century are we in?

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. 

At least 1 Billion Catholics world wide take him seriously, so you are most definetly in the minority in disliking his attire and his person.  Live and let live and let freedom ring!!
Title: Re: Thoughts on the news from the Vatican
Post by: P-N on 21:27 13-Feb-2013
slander much?

I think you mean libelous (and possibly defamation) rather than slander.
Title: Re: Thoughts on the news from the Vatican
Post by: kyivkpic on 21:33 13-Feb-2013
well... I wonder if the Vatican's financial scandals have anything to do with his resignation? http://www.forbes.com/sites/realspin/2012/06/26/the-vatican-bank-the-most-secret-bank-in-the-world/ (http://www.forbes.com/sites/realspin/2012/06/26/the-vatican-bank-the-most-secret-bank-in-the-world/)

I'm not going to show any respect to His Excellency, sorry guys. I'm not denigrating the Christian faith, but I grew up in a VERY Catholic family and I think the Catholic Church is the world's largest cult. It's certainly an occult society and the Vatican as an institution has a bad track record. The crusades, the Inquisition, 100 years war, pedophile scandals, hordes of gold and riches and expects 10% of parishioners income, and still can't help a poor illegitimate bastard child (that would be me) who had to go to Mass every week and didn't even have a decent winter coat or shoes. Why? because I was an illegitimate bastard child.
Title: Re: Thoughts on the news from the Vatican
Post by: P-N on 21:36 13-Feb-2013
........but I grew up in a VERY Catholic family.......

Likewise.
Title: Re: Thoughts on the news from the Vatican
Post by: kyivkpic on 21:37 13-Feb-2013
He was probably about to be exposed for diddling little boys.

slander much?

It would be a real shocker if a high ranking Catholic priest were indicted for such a thing or concealing it, wouldn't it?

He gives me the creeps, and how can anyone be taken seriously who dresses like that and expects people to refer to him as "His Excellency" and kiss his ring? What century are we in?

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. 

At least 1 Billion Catholics world wide take him seriously, so you are most definetly in the minority in disliking his attire and his person.  Live and let live and let freedom ring!!

Well, fionnain, by that logic, there are 1.6 billion muslims, so.... perhaps you should live and live with the muslims?
Title: Re: Thoughts on the news from the Vatican
Post by: kyivkpic on 21:42 13-Feb-2013
slander much?

I think you mean libelous (and possibly defamation) rather than slander.

Alright.... he isn't a pedophile (as far as we know) but he has been accused of covering up pedophilia by none other than Christopher Hitchens. http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/fighting_words/2010/03/the_great_catholic_coverup.html (http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/fighting_words/2010/03/the_great_catholic_coverup.html)
Title: Re: Thoughts on the news from the Vatican
Post by: kyivkpic on 21:48 13-Feb-2013
back to OP

Mark, here's Joseph P. Farrell's conspiratorial and occult take on the resignation.

http://gizadeathstar.com/2013/02/flash-some-thoughts-concering-the-resignation-of-ratzinger/ (http://gizadeathstar.com/2013/02/flash-some-thoughts-concering-the-resignation-of-ratzinger/)
Title: Re: Thoughts on the news from the Vatican
Post by: lordtiberius on 21:57 13-Feb-2013
slander much?

I think you mean libelous (and possibly defamation) rather than slander.

Alright.... he isn't a pedophile (as far as we know) but he has been accused of covering up pedophilia by none other than Christopher Hitchens. http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/fighting_words/2010/03/the_great_catholic_coverup.html (http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/fighting_words/2010/03/the_great_catholic_coverup.html)

I don't see the point in discussing this if you make yourself an any enemy of the facts.  God Bless You!
Title: Re: Thoughts on the news from the Vatican
Post by: kyivkpic on 22:09 13-Feb-2013
slander much?

I think you mean libelous (and possibly defamation) rather than slander.

Alright.... he isn't a pedophile (as far as we know) but he has been accused of covering up pedophilia by none other than Christopher Hitchens. http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/fighting_words/2010/03/the_great_catholic_coverup.html (http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/fighting_words/2010/03/the_great_catholic_coverup.html)

I don't see the point in discussing this if you make yourself an any enemy of the facts.  God Bless You!

I didn't know it was a discussion. Facts are facts, I'm not an enemy of them. I'd love to see their bank accounts.

If you want to defend the creepy old man, you're going to have to give me some serious facts to support the Vatican's good name, but so far you haven't. You've just made an appeal to authority, which is a logical fallacy.

God Bless You
Title: Re: Thoughts on the news from the Vatican
Post by: lordtiberius on 23:47 13-Feb-2013
slander much?

I think you mean libelous (and possibly defamation) rather than slander.

Alright.... he isn't a pedophile (as far as we know) but he has been accused of covering up pedophilia by none other than Christopher Hitchens. http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/fighting_words/2010/03/the_great_catholic_coverup.html (http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/fighting_words/2010/03/the_great_catholic_coverup.html)

I don't see the point in discussing this if you make yourself an any enemy of the facts.  God Bless You!

I didn't know it was a discussion. Facts are facts, I'm not an enemy of them. I'd love to see their bank accounts.

If you want to defend the creepy old man, you're going to have to give me some serious facts to support the Vatican's good name, but so far you haven't. You've just made an appeal to authority, which is a logical fallacy.

God Bless You

here's a fact.  Someday you will die.  You will probably be forgotten.  Someday I will die, maybe I will be forgotten too.  But the Catholic Church will live on, because people will choose to be apart of it now until the end of time and no nasty slur or half truth you utter will change that.  I hope your Mother is still praying for you.  You need it.  Good Day!
Title: Re: Thoughts on the news from the Vatican
Post by: P-N on 02:51 14-Feb-2013
Writing as a person raised Catholic, I will quite happily state that there are faults within the Catholic Church, particularly so within the Vatican relating to the political shenanigans and financial nefariousness therein - to name but two areas of concern - but ever has it been thus within the Holy See.

I will also quite happily state that there were, and undoubtedly still are, issues within the areas of pedophile priesthood -  and no doubt there are other issues as well, many of which are quietly dealt with internally.  But we are talking about the structure and individuals within said structure and all structures have their faults, some exceptionally serious faults and others minor.

Attacking, criticising, mocking, analising that structure has no effect in the faith of believers - after all their faith is ultimately not with the Church but with the entity the Church worships and purports to be a conduit to. 

There can be no justification for the way the Catholic Church initially dealt with the pedophilia issue.  There is no more justification for its more recent attempts to keep a lid on it until it became quite clear that the lid could no longer be kept on.  There is no justification in the Church obstructing any form of parliamentary or criminal inquiries into its efforts to deal with these matters quietly and internally.

Thus, blunt attacks or those ones delivered with delicacy and finesse on the structure and some individuals within the Church are to be expected and also not defended blindly.  Just as a patriot will love their country but recognise when it is wrong and a nationalist will simply love their country regardless of its wrongs,  it is necessary to recognise when the Church and/or some of its employees have significant failings and are indeed guilty of, or complicit in, abhorrent and highly distasteful acts.  Something not exclusive to Catholicism of course.

The same can be said of Islam, Judaism or any other form of organised religion.  The simple fact is, regardless of the faults of any organised religion, the believers ultimately believe in a God (or Gods) over and above the Church organisational structure and people within - regardless of the religion.  If your faith is blindly in "The Church", (whatever religion) and not in a God (or Gods) then surely that faith is misplaced.

When all is said and done, believers believe (whether they adhere to any organised religion or not) and non-believers do not.

If anybody seriously thinks that this forum is a place where a highly intelligent and intellectual theological debate will occur  such as this one below for example, then I am afraid I am yet to see any signs of such intellect on display in this forum (take offence if you wish, but none is meant):

Richard Dawkins, Rowan Williams, Anthony Kenny: "Human Beings & Ultimate Origin" Debate (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HWN4cfh1Fac#ws)

Therefore, I see nothing to be gained by blindly defending the acts of an organisation or those within it when it is found wanting, any more than blindly dismissing the genuinely helpful deeds carried out by the same structures when they occur.  The failure to accept either is simply a display of incredibly small-mindedness.
Title: Re: Thoughts on the news from the Vatican
Post by: lordtiberius on 04:29 14-Feb-2013
Your argument though valid is much ado about nothing as the current Pope was a fierce advocate for prosecution.  Further the US Bishops asked John Jay College to independently audit the church of the more than 11,000 complaints launched at less than 4,500 men, it is about 4% of the priest population where as the pedophile population is between 5 to 10% of men and between .4 to 4% of women.

Today is Ash Wednesday.  I challenge you to re-examine your faith.  Ask yourself if pride has not blighted your vision and ask yourself as Peter has, "Who else has the words of Eternal Life?"
Title: Re: Thoughts on the news from the Vatican
Post by: fionnain on 04:50 14-Feb-2013
He was probably about to be exposed for diddling little boys.

slander much?
 

It would be a real shocker if a high ranking Catholic priest were indicted for such a thing or concealing it, wouldn't it?

He gives me the creeps, and how can anyone be taken seriously who dresses like that and expects people to refer to him as "His Excellency" and kiss his ring? What century are we in?

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. 

At least 1 Billion Catholics world wide take him seriously, so you are most definetly in the minority in disliking his attire and his person.  Live and let live and let freedom ring!!

Well, fionnain, by that logic, there are 1.6 billion muslims, so.... perhaps you should live and live with the muslims?

I am all for living and let live with the Muslims.  The problem is that they will not agree to do the same.  Muslims murdered my friends in Beirut in 1983 and many others since that time. 

Title: Re: Thoughts on the news from the Vatican
Post by: fionnain on 05:14 14-Feb-2013
The Catholic Church does not need defending here or anywhere else.  The church is flawed because it is led by men and all men are flawed.  The thread was started to discuss the resignation of the current Pope.  The Pope is not on trial and I am not aware of any evidence that this man was a pedofile or a dirty financial dealer. 

The Catholic church has weathered many storms and it still survives and does more good than bad.  Kind of like most of us here I suppose. 

What the US Bishops did wrong with regard to the pedofile priests in the USA was not to warn and separate the bad priests from being able to repeat their sinful and horrible acts with children.  They wanted to handle the problems within the church and they failed very badly. 

No one here is requred to like or even respect the Pope, but there is no need to make wild and unsubstantiated allegations against him. 

Most of the Christians in the USA do not believe in a "Pope" since there is no Bibical source for such an office or a large autocratic church for that matter.  But, just because there is no Bibical reference for the concept of a Pope, that does not mean that a Pope cannot be respected and do a lot of good in the world. 

It was Christ that said when two or more of my followers are gathered in my name that is where you will find my church.  So, the concept of a church does not have to be a large centrally organized institution, but rather a small gathering of believers that simply want to worship and share fellowship together. 

Fair and constructive criticism is always welcome, but there is no need to get wreckless with false and unsubstantiaed accusations about an 85  year old man regardless of his office. 

We are about to witness history and that is what this thread was started for gentlemen. 
Title: Re: Thoughts on the news from the Vatican
Post by: kyivkpic on 07:45 14-Feb-2013
It's getting deep here on the forum.  :(
Title: Re: Thoughts on the news from the Vatican
Post by: P-N on 10:37 14-Feb-2013
It's getting deep here on the forum.  :(

And the thread is probably missing the subtle issue the OP was attempting to raise. As I previously stated, knowing MW Dabbs as well as I do, I strongly suspect his OP has much, much more to do with the Prophecies of Malachi.

 
Title: Re: Thoughts on the news from the Vatican
Post by: kyivkpic on 11:22 14-Feb-2013
I did post the link to Joseph P. Farrell's article.

I don't have much to say about Malachi's prophecy. I've heard the talk about it on Coast to Coast AM, but religious prophecy is not for me. It certainly makes for interesting stories and tales on late night talk radio, though.
 
Title: Re: Thoughts on the news from the Vatican
Post by: fionnain on 14:29 14-Feb-2013
It's getting deep here on the forum.  :(

And the thread is probably missing the subtle issue the OP was attempting to raise. As I previously stated, knowing MW Dabbs as well as I do, I strongly suspect his OP has much, much more to do with the Prophecies of Malachi.

 

The Book of Malachi was the last book of the Old Testament and the last book of the twelve minor prophets.  It was written after the Jews returned to Israel after the 70 years of exile into Babylon.  The book was written by an anonymus author in approximately 455 BC and is historically important because it gives a picture of life in the Jewish community after they returned from exile in Babylon between the period of Haggai and the reform measures of Ezra and Nehemiah. 

The book contains only three chapters and the first two chapters describe the sins of the priests and the sins of the people and the consequences of disobedience.  The third and final chapter deals with prophecy and the coming of the messenger of the covenant.  There is however, reference to fire and judgment upon the wicked.

" . . . 19 For lo, the day is coming, blazing like an oven, when all the proud and all the evil doers will be stubble,
And the day that is coming will set them on fire,
leaving them neither root nor branch,
says the Lord of hosts. 
20 But for you who fear my name, there will arise
the sun of justice with its healing rays;
And you will gambol like calve out of the stall
21 and tread down the wicked;
They will become ashes under the soles of your feet,
on the day I take action, says the Lord of hosts." . . .
Malachi 3:19-21

In the Book of Matthew, Jesus quotes from Malachi and instructs that the prophesy in Malachi was about the coming of John the Baptist who is said to have paved the way for he coming of Christ's three year ministry. 

I do not know if OP was referring to Malachi in starting this thread, but the predictions of Malachi were directed at the Jews that were living under the law.  Since the coming of Christ, we no longer live under the law, but instead we live under grace.  So, the prophecy is no longer valid to the followers of Christ since their sins have been covered by the blood of the lamb and they live under grace and not the law of Moses. 
Title: Re: Thoughts on the news from the Vatican
Post by: P-N on 15:04 14-Feb-2013
Yes I know all that - but the prophecies referred to and generally known as the Prophecies of Malachi are those of Saint Malachi the 12th Century Bishop of Ireland who (it is claimed by some) wrote just over 100 cryptic Latin ruminations relating to the forthcoming Popes (and anti-Popes).  Nothing to do with the Old Testament whatsoever.

The current Pope, Benedict XVI corresponds to the name of the Pope that is penultimate on that list.  Thereafter is Peter Romanus (or Peter the Roman) who is the final Pope on the list.

Ergo, I suspect the OP was inferring, or indeed posing the question, that considering the penultimate named Pope on the list has just resigned, coinciding with a lightening strike on the Vatican the same day, is some form of Apocalypse heading for humanity (or the Catholic Church) in the very near future.

As it seems very likely that the next Pope will not be a European for the first time in a very long time, possibly the first time ever, (I don't recall and am not interested enough to look it up), there may well be quite a number amongst the Catholic ranks that may consider that something close to Apocalyptic.  Enough to create terminal friction, who knows?

Or maybe, it could very well mean the Apocalypse in a very real sense for humanity, or for Christianity, or for Catholic Church in particular - or anything else for that matter - who knows.

To take it even remotely seriously, one must of course attribute the Prophicies of Malachi to St Malachi in the first place - which the Catholic Church, naturally, does not.

As with all things, time will tell.  It would be quite interesting if the next Pope were to take the name "Peter" though  :D
Title: Re: Thoughts on the news from the Vatican
Post by: kyivkpic on 16:35 14-Feb-2013
Or maybe, it could very well mean the Apocalypse in a very real sense for humanity, or for Christianity, or for Catholic Church in particular - or anything else for that matter - who knows.

To take it even remotely seriously, one must of course attribute the Prophicies of Malachi to St Malachi in the first place - which the Catholic Church, naturally, does not.

As with all things, time will tell.  It would be quite interesting if the next Pope were to take the name "Peter" though  :D

Or it could just self-fulfilling prophecy that's completely fabricated which the Church's PR masters who then weave it into their public drama to beguile the gullible masses (kind of like how ancient priests could terrorize and exploit the masses by being able to predict eclipses and other astronomical phenomenon). It's all pageantry. Look at the ridiculous outfits they wear. The Church is show business. Believe me, it's  awkward to actually have to go and make sure the priest's ornate gowns are ruffled in the just right patterns for the photography while he prostrates himself in some gesture that comes the feudal system which Christianity went hand in hand. You prostrate yourself before a tyrant who has his back against a wall and his henchmen to his sides and is terrified of being attacked.

The verses are certainly good poetry, which is supposed to be the art of the describing the indescribable, but like all prophecy they just have some basic truisms mixed with some mystical gobbledygook. Perhaps someone did have a psychedelic apocalyptic vision and wrote it down with some vague coincidences, but Armageddon and the Islamic equivalents are all just scary stories for children and the weak minded. They're even scarier when you have a near majority of people in a nation like the US passively and actively accepting and supporting murder and destruction of entire societies because they're blasted with media that insinuates that Israel and the middle east wars (among others) are all involved in some otherworldly religious context instead of psychopathic economic rationale. That's a bit more complicated than magical stories which lull the believers with the promise of everlasting happiness after a Apocalypse so that they really don't object to the war, because that just means the time is getting closer to the return of an imaginary savior. It's linear thinking and pernicious, and we don't know for certain that human history is linear or cyclical. The universe is full of cycles so perhaps the Apocalypse is a recurring aspect of the Universe. The Apocalypse has certainly come for most other species on this planet. If there is an Apocalypse then perhaps it's for the better, but I don't think it has to happen. The most likely way for it to happen would come from the two large masses of believers whose faiths come from Apocalyptic stories with leaders possessing weapons of mass destruction. I hope that doesn't happen, but if it does then any survivors from the warring faiths will realize they didn't go to the never ending happy land in the sky and perhaps our species will evolve into trans-humanist era, we'll merge with the machines and travel to the stars and forget about silly old stories.

Who knows?... perhaps a giant rock will fall from the sky instead and it's known by the elite who are building underground bunkers. But I suspect the lightning strike was just a photo-shop job or an old photo or it was just an odd coincidence. It looks like a structure that probably get's hit by lightning frequently if there is a lightning storm.



Title: Re: Thoughts on the news from the Vatican
Post by: Fraucha on 17:54 14-Feb-2013
Apocalypse ....

I lost count of the times we were/are heading for or on the cusp of an Apocalypse. We are still here.

So the Pope resignes, so it doesn't happen that often, but odds are that it would have happened and will again. Remember he is only  a man, used to be a real boy (a Hitler Youth no less), not an actual god, just another Pope lost to time and regulated to obscurity, until this brilliant stroke of genius. A quitter, I might add, when lesser Popes served until their death he decides to wog out because his health is failing...hell he has kept that pacemaker secret for three years, change the batteries, man up and serve until the end like the great and not so great Popes of the past.  I now have less respect for him for making his mark in history the chicken poop way, which was the only way he was going to be remembered.

Malachi? Pfft.... In 1700 years when they dig ExpatUA out of "the cloud" on some unforeseen data mining quest, and find that I Fraucha am sure the Chicago Cubs will win the World Series after North and South Korea reunite,* future generations of robots will think (and rightly so) that even Fraucha was a prophet. We should make a list of "events" come up with a pen name and publish them, our creation will live forever, just like all the other drugged out freaks who pounded crap predictions in stone or scratched them out on some other high tech medium at the time.

* You read it here first!
Title: Re: Thoughts on the news from the Vatican
Post by: P-N on 17:54 14-Feb-2013
I forget all the tales and folklore that surround the Prophecies of Malachi, but naturally the Catholic Church do not attribute the prophecies to Saint Malachi as some do.  It quite simply does not, and would not do to attach such prophecies to an Irish Bishop subsequently made a saint prior to said prophecies emergence/discovery predicting a papal legacy both good, bad and ultimately apocalyptic.  :D

It is not so easy to un-saint a saint after all, thus easier to denounce this Latin text as falsely attributed to Saint Malachi - and falsely attributed it may well be.  It could very well be the result of some Middle Ages prank, tomfoolery or subversive nefarious act.

If memory serves, the said prophecies came to see the light of day sometime around the 16th century - again I have so little interest I am not prepared to look it up. :D

Title: Re: Thoughts on the news from the Vatican
Post by: P-N on 18:05 14-Feb-2013
.......The most likely way for it to happen would come from the two large masses of believers whose faiths come from Apocalyptic stories with leaders possessing weapons of mass destruction. I hope that doesn't happen, but if it does then any survivors from the warring faiths will realize they didn't go to the never ending happy land in the sky.......

Which would rather nicely take us to Albert Pike (who as far as I know is the only Confederate General to have a statue in Washington) and his 15th August 1871 letter to Mazzini (or a letter attributed to him) relating to WWI, WWII and what he foresees as WWIII - resulting in nihilism.

"The First World War must be brought about in order to permit the Illuminati to overthrow the power of the Czars in Russia and of making that country a fortress of atheistic Communism. The divergences caused by the "agentur" (agents) of the Illuminati between the British and Germanic Empires will be used to foment this war. At the end of the war, Communism will be built and used in order to destroy the other governments and in order to weaken the religions.

The Second World War must be fomented by taking advantage of the differences between the Fascists and the political Zionists. This war must be brought about so that Nazism is destroyed and that the political Zionism be strong enough to institute a sovereign state of Israel in Palestine. During the Second World War, International Communism must become strong enough in order to balance Christendom, which would be then restrained and held in check until the time when we would need it for the final social cataclysm.

The Third World War must be fomented by taking advantage of the differences caused by the "agentur" of the "Illuminati" between the political Zionists and the leaders of Islamic World. The war must be conducted in such a way that Islam (the Moslem Arabic World) and political Zionism (the State of Israel) mutually destroy each other. Meanwhile the other nations, once more divided on this issue will be constrained to fight to the point of complete physical, moral, spiritual and economical exhaustion?We shall unleash the Nihilists and the atheists, and we shall provoke a formidable social cataclysm which in all its horror will show clearly to the nations the effect of absolute atheism, origin of savagery and of the most bloody turmoil. Then everywhere, the citizens, obliged to defend themselves against the world minority of revolutionaries, will exterminate those destroyers of civilization, and the multitude, disillusioned with Christianity, whose deistic spirits will from that moment be without compass or direction, anxious for an ideal, but without knowing where to render its adoration, will receive the true light through the universal manifestation of the pure doctrine of Lucifer, brought finally out in the public view. This manifestation will result from the general reactionary movement which will follow the destruction of Christianity and atheism, both conquered and exterminated at the same time."


All jolly good fun!
Title: Re: Thoughts on the news from the Vatican
Post by: David Rochlin on 18:57 14-Feb-2013
Cardinal Ratzinger chose the name Benedict, and although he said it was for other reasons, he could not have been unaware of the Prophecy of Malachy.   It seems to me that there is too much historical manipulation by the supposed figures named in it.  One constant in the history of the Christian Church, is the conscious effort various figures make, to fit into popular prophecies, rather than simply advance while alive, or posthumously, by merit and, God's will.
Title: Re: Thoughts on the news from the Vatican
Post by: P-N on 19:14 14-Feb-2013
Cardinal Ratzinger chose the name Benedict, and although he said it was for other reasons, he could not have been unaware of the Prophecy of Malachy. 

Quite true.  There is no way he would be unaware of the Prophecies of Malachi as they have been subject to much discussion within Catholicism for centuries.  I don't know many Catholics who aren't aware of them so certainly he will have been.

The interesting thing will be if the next one choses the name Peter or not, and if so, is it to prove or disprove once and for all what the Catholic Church doesn't accept was ever written by Saint Malachi in the first place.

I don't really care either way, but it could be an interesting psychological experiment on the flock to do so.  :-\
Title: Re: Thoughts on the news from the Vatican
Post by: MWDabbs on 22:29 14-Feb-2013
Everyone probably knows my opinion of pedophiles, nazis, money launderers and the rest, all valid points -- and darn that "oral tradition" that keeps spilling over into everything.   I liked Joseph Farrell's notes -- a very in depth analysis.

The Malachi Prophecies are definitely one area of interest.  The in-fighting within the College of Cardinals is another - and we know that's been stacked over the term of this pope.  We will soon see how the latter applies to the former.

I'm keenly interested in the lightning though.  Coincidence?  Perhaps, to have lightning strike the Vatican on the same day the Pope announces he will resign, for the first time in 600 years.  To catch it on film?  Obviously, with such news there would be more cameras pointing in the direction of the Vatican.  Sort of 50-50 on that, not saying it is not real at all.  That amounts to 3 events - the camera being the least bizarre. 

Resignation - over health issues?  Or maybe he wanted to spend more time with his family?  yeah... 

As strange as it may sound though...  I am more interesting in the lightning.  And while that may sound stupid, going back a ways to say Gnostic scriptures, Jehovah or IHVH factors of one of seven archons as a sort of "rain god" - i.e. The Great Flood, etc., and so forth. 

It's that kind of omen, within the broader context of the Roman Church today (under assault from several directions including pedophilia, financial irregularities, associations with the nazis, abortion, etc., etc.,) and the world as it IS.... Plus at least some token consideration to this Pope having called for a new global financial system (like the first time in recorded history as far as I'm aware)... With the NWO... etc., etc. 

Anyway, we have three possibilities -- a) it was a completely spontaneous, natural event, purely coincidental; b) it was produced by some agency of IHVH, or c) it was man-made. 

But by all counts it is exceedingly rare and bizarre, a sort of iconic moment - epitome of omens kind of event, suffice that I'm willing to entertain all three possibilities more or less in equal proportions.  Just curious though what others think about it... perfectly normal or perfectly abnormal?  The rest... we'll see.
Title: Re: Thoughts on the news from the Vatican
Post by: David Rochlin on 23:17 14-Feb-2013
I'm keenly interested in the lightning though.  Coincidence?  Perhaps, to have lightning strike the Vatican on the same day the Pope announces he will resign, for the first time in 600 years.  To catch it on film?  Obviously, with such news there would be more cameras pointing in the direction of the Vatican.  Sort of 50-50 on that, not saying it is not real at all.  That amounts to 3 events - the camera being the least bizarre. 

Resignation - over health issues?  Or maybe he wanted to spend more time with his family?  yeah... 

As strange as it may sound though...  I am more interesting in the lightning.  And while that may sound stupid, going back a ways to say Gnostic scriptures, Jehovah or IHVH factors of one of seven archons as a sort of "rain god" - i.e. The Great Flood, etc., and so forth. 

It's that kind of omen, within the broader context of the Roman Church today (under assault from several directions including pedophilia, financial irregularities, associations with the nazis, abortion, etc., etc.,) and the world as it IS.... Plus at least some token consideration to this Pope having called for a new global financial system (like the first time in recorded history as far as I'm aware)... With the NWO... etc., etc. 

Anyway, we have three possibilities -- a) it was a completely spontaneous, natural event, purely coincidental; b) it was produced by some agency of IHVH, or c) it was man-made. 

But by all counts it is exceedingly rare and bizarre, a sort of iconic moment - epitome of omens kind of event, suffice that I'm willing to entertain all three possibilities more or less in equal proportions.  Just curious though what others think about it... perfectly normal or perfectly abnormal?  The rest... we'll see.

One more possibility:
Maybe his orders were: "Next time there is a lightning storm over the Vatican, announce my resignation..."  Or maybe the depressing weather, perhaps some miserable outdoor events in his schedule, influenced his timing.
Title: Re: Thoughts on the news from the Vatican
Post by: P-N on 14:50 15-Feb-2013
At the start of this news clip - a video of the lightening strike on the Vatican - just for you MW:

http://www.1tv.ru/news/world/226225 (http://www.1tv.ru/news/world/226225)

Thereafter, FEMEN doing what FEMEN do.
Title: Re: Thoughts on the news from the Vatican
Post by: fionnain on 15:28 15-Feb-2013
Yes, a great topic of conversation, but all these theories are starting to sound like the 9/11 Truthers. 

How about this theory, the Pope is 85 and is in bad health and has stated that he lacks the strength and mental ability to perform his duties. 

BTW, does anyone know who really shot JFK?

Did Sirhon act alone in killing RFK

Who helped Ray flee to the UK after the MLK killing? 

Is it possible that anything can really be as it appears to be?

Yes, lighting is so rare that the Ben Franklin lighting rod invention is of no use any longer.   

Did FDR know in advance of the attack on Hawaii?

Has anyone seen Big Foot or the Loch Ness Monster lately? 

The Mayan end of the World?  How is that working out?

Will AeroSvit start flying to Atlantis after bankruptcy?

Did Armstrong really walk on the Moon?

Is Elvis really dead?

Does anyone know any members of the Illuminati?  We need some help here. 

Title: Re: Thoughts on the news from the Vatican
Post by: MWDabbs on 16:32 15-Feb-2013
So, I'm asking questions and asking what others think.   So we know what you think and how you think, Fionnain.

It makes for pretty bland conversation if everyone accepts the official story and talks about the weather.  Have fun with that. 

People would stop asking questions if the evidence fully supported the so-called "official stories".  While portions of the official story are undoubtedly true, not all are.  Of course, we could have believed Nixon when he said, "I am not a crook."  We could have believed Clinton when he said, "I did not have sex with that woman".  We could believe in the idea of immaculate conception and virgin birth, or the idea of God incarnating in the form of a man in what happens to be a very interesting bloodline, or that Mary Magdalene was simply a prostitute, that the American Civil War was mainly over slavery, that we wiretap only suspected terrorists, that Iraq did have WMD's, that the BP oil spill was merely 5k bpd, or even a European Health's board decision that "Water" helps prevent dehydration.

While I do not particularly care for the Roman Catholic Church, I do recognize its importance globally, as a political-social-financial-and-religious organization.  There are some very interesting nuances applying at this time to both Catholicism and Tibetan Buddhism, relative to both the Dalai Lama and the Pope which have a broader bearing upon religion in an era where religious meaning is in extreme decline.   There are aspects of that which are simultaneously "good"/"bad" - in various subjective terms. 

Anyways, there's enough food for thought for those who do think for themselves to question matters further.     
Title: Re: Thoughts on the news from the Vatican
Post by: fionnain on 17:39 15-Feb-2013
So, I'm asking questions and asking what others think.   So we know what you think and how you think, Fionnain.

It makes for pretty bland conversation if everyone accepts the official story and talks about the weather.  Have fun with that. 

People would stop asking questions if the evidence fully supported the so-called "official stories".  While portions of the official story are undoubtedly true, not all are.  Of course, we could have believed Nixon when he said, "I am not a crook."  We could have believed Clinton when he said, "I did not have sex with that woman".  We could believe in the idea of immaculate conception and virgin birth, or the idea of God incarnating in the form of a man in what happens to be a very interesting bloodline, or that Mary Magdalene was simply a prostitute, that the American Civil War was mainly over slavery, that we wiretap only suspected terrorists, that Iraq did have WMD's, that the BP oil spill was merely 5k bpd, or even a European Health's board decision that "Water" helps prevent dehydration.

While I do not particularly care for the Roman Catholic Church, I do recognize its importance globally, as a political-social-financial-and-religious organization.  There are some very interesting nuances applying at this time to both Catholicism and Tibetan Buddhism, relative to both the Dalai Lama and the Pope which have a broader bearing upon religion in an era where religious meaning is in extreme decline.   There are aspects of that which are simultaneously "good"/"bad" - in various subjective terms. 

Anyways, there's enough food for thought for those who do think for themselves to question matters further.   

Yes, and now we know what you think and how you think too Mr. Dabbs. 

Reasonable inquiry is one thing, but promoting the absurd is nothing more than a carnival side show when it comes to the wild theories bandied about.

As a lawyer, I always question things especially wild and crazy therories.  I have seen them come from both prosecutor and defence attorney alike.  Good theatre abounds in them.  Truth always seems illusive when these types of distractions obscure the view. 

I will agree that religious observance has been in decline in Western Europe and the USA, but our historical perspective is but a mere blink of the eye.  The words of Jesus however, are timeless. 

Immaculate conception, God in the form of a man, and the resurection are not theories to be proved or disproved by man.  It is part of faith and nothing more.  Believers do not live by sight, but by faith. 

As to the American War Between the States, War of Northern Aggression, or Civil War, the best explanation has to do with slavery.  Both the fear of the spread of slavery and the fear of a loss of the right to slavery created a divide that could only be bridged by .58 Cal. muzzel loading rifles and grape shot. 

Oh BTW, All the democrats, main stream media and many republicans did believe the Draft Dodger until the blue dress proved him a lier.  Before that, he went unquestioned. 

The very interesting bloodline was predicted in the Prophetic books of the Old Testament, but again a matter of faith and not sight. 
Title: Re: Thoughts on the news from the Vatican
Post by: MWDabbs on 21:03 15-Feb-2013
Everyone knew how I think to begin with.   :P   So, we now abide by what you consider rules of evidence and court procedure?    ::)

Just as a point of reference, Jesus as divine son of god is not necessarily a matter of faith, but quite possible one of dogma - established by the First Council of Nicea, per the interests of Emperor Constantine, and generally leading to the violent eradication of every Gnostic sect in the Mediterranean.

We can generally infer from the Old Testament that those recording it were imminently concerned with Bloodlines, and one in particular - the Davidic Line.  It even starts out that way, Adam and Eve have two sons, one kills the other and then all the sudden goes out to find a wife to form cities - skipping over things like villages and towns, or where his wife was found.   But all that leads to Noah, the Nephilim, Solomon, David and so on.  These are still issues of considerable and relevant speculation for at least some of us.

The simple issue is that IF Jesus was the Divine Son of God and he had offspring -- that throws a few wrenches into the entire issue of Apostelic Succession.   The simple notion that he was of the Line of David itself has implications not favorable to the Roman Church.  Whether you are willing to entertain that possibility or not, is entirely irrelevant  - there are several on this board who find significant interest in this subject and the numerous extensions of it.   The issue of "offspring" while not directly related to my line of inquiry may have bearing upon the "end game" of the Roman Church - pertinent by virtue of the Malachi Prophecies.

But, the questions here are not debating these issues... as for all those who DO believe in the Bible, there are things like Omens, Plagues, Curses, Demons, Signs and Seals, Trumpets and Archangels and things like that.  Now I'm pretty sure that these go way over the top of any conventional courtroom rules of evidence you may be accustomed to.   

Now, I very much do believe these types of things, not necessarily from a Christian or Catholic perspective.  And there'll be those who presume I'm a nut -- but, scientifically speaking for all of our adult lives -- "life has been predicated on the existence of water".  Of course, one would have to be a full-blown psychotic lunatic on crack to believe there's water on the Moon... or Mercury.   And then, one would have to on psychedelic shrooms to believe that there could possibly be such thing as an "buttock nic-based life form". 

And there are those who will say, "Pictures or it didn't happen" - so 20th Century, as we are now quite capable of invisibility, just per the technology already made known to the public.  So... if our measure of technology of what can and cannot be done is based upon a 100, 50 or even 10 year time frame... we might be able to get a glimpse of how narrow-sighted we really are. 

Plenty of other things, suffice that in a discussion concerning the Pope -- it is not too freakin' far afield, not a carnival as you may seem to think, to be discussing things like omens, signs, miracles and things like that, as these have been accredited recently to John Paul II.   

So, I've got no argument with you.... and won't be responding further to this line of discussion and if you want the closing argument, fine... be my freakin' guest.   For now, a lot of eyes are on the events of March.   Nevertheless... I stand by my initial questions, and Fionnan believes everything was completely normal, nothing strange at all, move along.... 

Title: Re: Thoughts on the news from the Vatican
Post by: lordtiberius on 22:01 15-Feb-2013
(http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lkk3lt3fQm1qazyuko1_1280.png)

I miss Pope John Paul II.  I saw him once when I was a boy when he visited Phoenix.  I like the current Pope as well.  He demonstrated a lot of courage and an agile mind.  He understood the challenges of the church and he began the great work we Catholics must complete in the 21st century.  God Bless Him and God Bless The New Pope!
Title: Re: Thoughts on the news from the Vatican
Post by: P-N on 22:17 15-Feb-2013
Just as a point of reference, Jesus as divine son of god is not necessarily a matter of faith, but quite possible one of dogma - established by the First Council of Nicea, per the interests of Emperor Constantine, and generally leading to the violent eradication of every Gnostic sect in the Mediterranean.

We can generally infer from the Old Testament that those recording it were imminently concerned with Bloodlines, and one in particular - the Davidic Line.  It even starts out that way, Adam and Eve have two sons, one kills the other and then all the sudden goes out to find a wife to form cities - skipping over things like villages and towns, or where his wife was found.   But all that leads to Noah, the Nephilim, Solomon, David and so on.  These are still issues of considerable and relevant speculation for at least some of us.

The simple issue is that IF Jesus was the Divine Son of God and he had offspring -- that throws a few wrenches into the entire issue of Apostelic Succession.   The simple notion that he was of the Line of David itself has implications not favorable to the Roman Church. 

All issues that have been subject to intense debate and discussion in the highest theological and intellectual arenas to be fair.....many times over I would add.
Title: Re: Thoughts on the news from the Vatican
Post by: kyivkpic on 00:11 16-Feb-2013
@lordtiberius- I'll agree that Pope John Paul II seemed like genuinely decent human being. I never did agree much with the anti-contraceptive policy but I never held any distaste for him.  My thought was always he was just a kind intellectual( a fine one but perhaps with an Ivory Tower syndrome) and that he was just propped up as a good face.

The latest pope came in with scandals, is leaving with scandals, and came across as more than a little creepy. The Church has some serious financial issues and populations are rising and the number of priests has gone down continuously since the 1970's. Around 2003, the two Catholic churches in my county (out of a couple hundred other churches) had only 1 priest for 2 parishes of 300 each. The Church won't survive unless it allows priests to marry. The celibacy is a respectable kind of yoga exercise but I think if they really took the words of Jesus serious, "If your eye causes you to sin, gouge it out", then they'd go ahead and cut 'em off. I'd certainly respect their integrity.

The Catholic Church is also losing from a marketing angle. The respectable intellectualism and asceticism of Catholicism isn't appealing to the fat, dumb and happy masses. The majority of Protestant Churches are shameless in their corporate relationships and PR techniques with the false hopes, propaganda preachings, anti-intellectualism, and rabble rousing. It a wonderful way of getting the sheep to oppress themselves. It's quite intimidating to speak up about the nefarious relationship of mass media and religion and patriotism and war to a group of people that state their willingness to fight and die for their flag and bible and think the answer to the question, "WWJD?" is to have plenty of guns and ammo, and to be passive about corruption and lawlessness by the elite, because it all just portends the pernicious lie of a returning savior in the sky myth. It's quite debilitating and effective at making the sheep indifferent to their economic and social realities.

@fionnain - I'm not trying to attack Christian virtues or beliefs, but only what I perceive them to have been perverted into and used as. The difference between us is that while I agree that the character and teachings of Jesus are worthy of study and emulation, and reverence for him is a respectable form of bhakti yoga, I don't buy the propitiation of sin and the resurrection. I think they're pernicious lies used by the elite for centuries to retard human minds and exploit people. I will never tell a story or show an image or sculpture of a brutally tortured and executed man and tell my daughter that she is guilty for his death because she was born with sin, and fallen from grace, not unless I want her to be neurotic and subservient.

I don't really want to spark an argument or be mean spirited. I just feel the need give my perspective of the Catholic Church and my religious views as it's acceptable to evangelize here on the forum.

P-N is right. Debating about religion is a worthless venture. There are many great minds that have delved into these questions and their dialogues and discourses are all publicly available. To me, the language is mostly unintelligible and in pursuit of the in-determinable, however.   

I much more interested in trans-humanism and cybernetics and artificial intelligence and space travel than in old mythological stories.
Title: Re: Thoughts on the news from the Vatican
Post by: lordtiberius on 03:25 16-Feb-2013
kyivkpic,  Thank you for your thoughtful response.  You spoke the truth and I found some things I could not agree with.

P-N is right. Debating about religion is a worthless venture.

If we do not discuss the things that are important, then what kind of people are we?

@lordtiberius- I'll agree that Pope John Paul II seemed like genuinely decent human being.

He was more than a  genuinely decent human being.  You and I are genuinely decent human beings.  He was something more.  He was something more because of his work and his faith.  He is an example of how Christ would have lived in his times and therefore is an example of how we should live in your times.  You mentioned in you country that life is tough.  Life is pretty bad over here and the example that Pope John Paul II provided in his papacy but in particularly in enduring the Nazis and the Soviets serve to guide me in deal with the petty tyrants in my country.

I never did agree much with the anti-contraceptive policy

Do you deny that contraceptives

1) diminish the value of women
2) encourage wide spread immorality
3) encourage the perversion of science
4) encourage governments to sterilize their populations?

The latest pope came in with scandals, is leaving with scandals, and came across as more than a little creepy. The Church has some serious financial issues and populations are rising and the number of priests has gone down continuously since the 1970's.

Leaders are sent to solve problems.  But let's be fair, he did not create these problems.  These problems are the result of decades of cultural decay.  And it is the church's responsibility to stand against the social ills that cultures blind themselves too.  He did that.  God does not judge us by whether or not we succeed or fail but if we showed up and gave it out best.  By those standards, he is fine.



Around 2003, the two Catholic churches in my county (out of a couple hundred other churches) had only 1 priest for 2 parishes of 300 each. The Church won't survive unless it allows priests to marry. The celibacy is a respectable kind of yoga exercise but I think if they really took the words of Jesus serious, "If your eye causes you to sin, gouge it out", then they'd go ahead and cut 'em off. I'd certainly respect their integrity.

The reason why Pope Gregory enacted sacerdotal celibacy is to prevent issues of children from inheriting church property.  By lifting the church teaching, not church doctrine, you risk introducing a problem solved a thousand years ago.

The Catholic Church is also losing from a marketing angle. The respectable intellectualism and asceticism of Catholicism isn't appealing to the fat, dumb and happy masses. The majority of Protestant Churches are shameless in their corporate relationships and PR techniques with the false hopes, propaganda preachings, anti-intellectualism, and rabble rousing. It a wonderful way of getting the sheep to oppress themselves. It's quite intimidating to speak up about the nefarious relationship of mass media and religion and patriotism and war to a group of people that state their willingness to fight and die for their flag and bible and think the answer to the question, "WWJD?" is to have plenty of guns and ammo, and to be passive about corruption and lawlessness by the elite, because it all just portends the pernicious lie of a returning savior in the sky myth. It's quite debilitating and effective at making the sheep indifferent to their economic and social realities.

You critique of American Protestantism is quite cogent and true.  But how do you respond to lies - even well marketed super clean lies - but with the truth.  The plain ugly truth is better than the beautiful lie.  All men of good sense know that. 
 

I much more interested in trans-humanism and cybernetics and artificial intelligence and space travel than in old mythological stories.

I would rather eat cake than exercise.  I would hardly call Christ's death and resurrection "old mythological stories" but a living reality that happens every day, every moment your are alive and every moment you die because God is infinite and if there is a God worth worshipping wouldn't his name be Love?
Title: Re: Thoughts on the news from the Vatican
Post by: lordtiberius on 03:30 16-Feb-2013
(http://bieniosek.com/gallery/albums/album48/pope.jpg)

It is also important to note the role of 19th century Slavic literature had on turning the events of the 20th century

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Juliusz_Słowacki (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Juliusz_Słowacki)

Quote
Juliusz Slowacki (1809 - 1849)

Translation: Copyright by The Dominican Nuns of Summit, New Jersey, 1980


Amid discord the Lord God strikes
An immense bell,
Behold, for a Slavic pope
He opens a throne.
This one does not flee before swords
Like that Italian.
He is daring, like God, he goes to the sword:
The world to him is powder!

His face is radiant with the Word,
A lamp for the servant,
Because of him the advancing race goes
Into the light, where God is.
At his prayers and commands
Not only men-
If he commands, the sun stops,
For power-this is a wonder!

Now he draws near-the new dispenser
Of vigor to the globe:
The blood of our veins goes back into our veins
Under his word;
In our hearts the movement begins of floods
Of divine light,
What thought thinks through him, this is created,
For power-this is Spirit.

And power is needed, that we may raise
This lordly world:
Thus here comes a Slavic pope,
A brother of the people;-
Behold, he already pours the world's balm
On our breasts
And the angel-choir sweeps flowers
Toward his throne.

He distributes love, as lords today
Distribute arms.
He displays sacramental power,
The world held in his palm;
To him a dove wings words in hymns,
Bears a report,
Sweet news, that now the Spirit shines
And has His honor;
Above him the beautiful sky is opened
From either side,
For his is grounded in the world and thus are renewed
Both world and throne.

Across nations he acts as brother,
The voice sent forth,
That spirits come to their final end
Through mounds of sacrifices;
Sacramental power avails him for the care
Of the nations,
Power which will be seen through the Spirit
Before the coffin here.

In Spirit thus you soon perceive
A phantom, then a face:
From the world's wound he casts out all corruption,
Vermin, reptiles.
He brings health, enkindles love
And saves the world;
He sweeps out the interior of the Churches,
Clears out the entrance,
He shows forth God in the world of creativity,
Bright as day.
http://stoper.blox.pl/2011/01/JULIUSZ-SLOWACKI-SLOWIANSKI-PAPIEZ.html (http://stoper.blox.pl/2011/01/JULIUSZ-SLOWACKI-SLOWIANSKI-PAPIEZ.html)

This current of Polish Romanticism reflects a spirituality that rejects the atheism of the "Enlightenment." 

Title: Re: Thoughts on the news from the Vatican
Post by: Fraucha on 06:51 16-Feb-2013
Short Atlantic Wire Story about some of the reasons for the step down....

http://news.yahoo.com/popes-secrets-beginning-leak-225318302.html (http://news.yahoo.com/popes-secrets-beginning-leak-225318302.html)
Title: Re: Thoughts on the news from the Vatican
Post by: kyivkpic on 09:59 16-Feb-2013

Who knows?... perhaps a giant rock will fall from the sky....

Brethren, please notice my prophecy on Thursday and the meteorite strike in Russia on Friday.

Heed my words.
Title: Re: Thoughts on the news from the Vatican
Post by: fionnain on 13:30 16-Feb-2013

Who knows?... perhaps a giant rock will fall from the sky....

Brethren, please notice my prophecy on Thursday and the meteorite strike in Russia on Friday.

Heed my words.

Oh kyivkpic the Magnificent!!  Are sure that was prophecy, or mere speculation?   ???

If you are really that good, please tell us who the next Pope will be?  They are taking bets in New York and I would like to make some easy money before returning to Poltava next week.   :D
Title: Re: Thoughts on the news from the Vatican
Post by: kyivkpic on 14:02 16-Feb-2013
Of course it wasn't prophecy but I'm not sure it was just speculation.

There's interesting research on this kind of thing at the Institute of Noetic Sciences, which was founded by Edgar Mitchell, the sixth man on the Moon. http://noetic.org/ (http://noetic.org/)

Rupert Sheldrake also does research on these kind of coincidences.
http://www.sheldrake.org/homepage.html (http://www.sheldrake.org/homepage.html)

I have no idea who the next Pope will be....I'm not even sure who the leading contenders are.

Title: Re: Thoughts on the news from the Vatican
Post by: fionnain on 14:21 16-Feb-2013
Everyone knew how I think to begin with.   :P   So, we now abide by what you consider rules of evidence and court procedure?    ::)

Just as a point of reference, Jesus as divine son of god is not necessarily a matter of faith, but quite possible one of dogma - established by the First Council of Nicea, per the interests of Emperor Constantine, and generally leading to the violent eradication of every Gnostic sect in the Mediterranean.

We can generally infer from the Old Testament that those recording it were imminently concerned with Bloodlines, and one in particular - the Davidic Line.  It even starts out that way, Adam and Eve have two sons, one kills the other and then all the sudden goes out to find a wife to form cities - skipping over things like villages and towns, or where his wife was found.   But all that leads to Noah, the Nephilim, Solomon, David and so on.  These are still issues of considerable and relevant speculation for at least some of us.

The simple issue is that IF Jesus was the Divine Son of God and he had offspring -- that throws a few wrenches into the entire issue of Apostelic Succession.   The simple notion that he was of the Line of David itself has implications not favorable to the Roman Church.  Whether you are willing to entertain that possibility or not, is entirely irrelevant  - there are several on this board who find significant interest in this subject and the numerous extensions of it.   The issue of "offspring" while not directly related to my line of inquiry may have bearing upon the "end game" of the Roman Church - pertinent by virtue of the Malachi Prophecies.

But, the questions here are not debating these issues... as for all those who DO believe in the Bible, there are things like Omens, Plagues, Curses, Demons, Signs and Seals, Trumpets and Archangels and things like that.  Now I'm pretty sure that these go way over the top of any conventional courtroom rules of evidence you may be accustomed to.   

Now, I very much do believe these types of things, not necessarily from a Christian or Catholic perspective.  And there'll be those who presume I'm a nut -- but, scientifically speaking for all of our adult lives -- "life has been predicated on the existence of water".  Of course, one would have to be a full-blown psychotic lunatic on crack to believe there's water on the Moon... or Mercury.   And then, one would have to on psychedelic shrooms to believe that there could possibly be such thing as an "buttock nic-based life form". 

And there are those who will say, "Pictures or it didn't happen" - so 20th Century, as we are now quite capable of invisibility, just per the technology already made known to the public.  So... if our measure of technology of what can and cannot be done is based upon a 100, 50 or even 10 year time frame... we might be able to get a glimpse of how narrow-sighted we really are. 

Plenty of other things, suffice that in a discussion concerning the Pope -- it is not too freakin' far afield, not a carnival as you may seem to think, to be discussing things like omens, signs, miracles and things like that, as these have been accredited recently to John Paul II.   

So, I've got no argument with you.... and won't be responding further to this line of discussion and if you want the closing argument, fine... be my freakin' guest.   For now, a lot of eyes are on the events of March.   Nevertheless... I stand by my initial questions, and Fionnan believes everything was completely normal, nothing strange at all, move along....

No one is asking you to abide by the rules of evidence and rules of court in discussing this topic.  Matters of faith are just that, matters of faith.  Man made laws and made made Councils have no bearing on the words of Christ and His apostles like Saul of Tarsus, better known as Paul.  Man will always misinterpret and/or corrupt the words of God and create man made legalisms, but they have no effect on the true words of God.  Councils and man made legalisms are mere distractions of which Jesus warned us about in the Book of Revelations.  It is best to take little stock in them.

Believers do believe that Jesus is the Son of God and that He is divine.  They also believe that Jesus had no wife and had no children.  So, for the follower/believer in Christ, there are no implications as to apostolic succession.  The Bible does not speak of or to any large church or popes, cardinals, or bishops.  They are all man made institutions and have no bibical reference. 

Being Catholic or any other denomination is not referenced in the Bible.  According to Christ, the church was simply a gathering of two of more people in His name.  I am neither for nor against organized churches that claim some form or Christianity.  But, as churches grow in size and scope, human sinfulness will appear and corruption will follow.  This is a product of flawed human beings and that is why Christ took all of these sins upon himself so that all men can be forgiven and redeemed.  We are not to judge others lest we be judged ourselves.  To say, as some here have said, that we are supposed to live with the guilt of the death of Jesus is completely off the mark.  The purpose of the death and resurrection was to completely and forever relieve us of all guilt and all sins.  Catholic and/or Chrisitan guilt is a bunch of pure unadulterated hogwash.   

There are mentions of demons and omens in the old testament, but the words of Christ relieved us of the law of Moses and now we live under grace if we so choose.  The rules of evidence have nothing to do with faith and they must be separated from each other.  The man made laws of man do not trump the grace from God.  Faith requires no rules of evidence or rules of court.  Faith will save you for we do not live for this world, but the promise of a better world in the Kingdom of heaven. 

We can surely discuss signs and miracles and things of that nature, but my point was that we are too quick to look for sinister signs and hidden stories when it is just as possible and more plausible that something normal is happening.  If we simply accept something that is rare or infrequent as normal, then there is no story and no theatre.  We seem to thrive on gossip, mystery and controversy.  Something normal is simply not exciting enough to gain our limted and lustful span of attention.  Too many people do not heed the words of warning found in Revelations 22:18-19.  It is better to accept the word of God and Christ than to endlessly speculate and hunt for witches that may or may not exist. 

I have no argument with you and I greatly appreciate the discussion and debate.  This has been a good thread!!  We shall soon see what March brings. 

Title: Re: Thoughts on the news from the Vatican
Post by: MWDabbs on 12:32 19-Feb-2013
http://vaticaninsider.lastampa.it/en/the-vatican/detail/articolo/benedetto-xvi-benedict-xvi-benedicto-xvi-22414/ (http://vaticaninsider.lastampa.it/en/the-vatican/detail/articolo/benedetto-xvi-benedict-xvi-benedicto-xvi-22414/)

Of course, I could be reading too much into this.  50-50... but noteworthy enough to at least remember this speech. 
Title: Re: Thoughts on the news from the Vatican
Post by: Claus on 14:36 19-Feb-2013
Speaking as an agnostic lutheran  :D
Who cares about popes?
Title: Re: Thoughts on the news from the Vatican
Post by: fionnain on 18:05 19-Feb-2013
Speaking as an agnostic lutheran  :D
Who cares about popes?

I thought you were trying to remove reilgion from this thead?  ???
Title: Religion
Post by: Claus on 18:14 19-Feb-2013
You got it wrong, fionnain  :D

I want to remove religion from this homepage!  :-*
Title: Re: Thoughts on the news from the Vatican
Post by: MWDabbs on 19:38 19-Feb-2013
I'm not a big fan of religion, but if religion was to be replaced by "something" what would it be?  What has it been?  Usually the state. 

Where religious discrimination is not very acceptable these days; political discrimination is... shall we say, "Actively Encouraged"? 

We know where that leads. 



Title: Re: Thoughts on the news from the Vatican
Post by: P-N on 20:08 19-Feb-2013
I'm not a big fan of religion, but if religion was to be replaced by "something" what would it be?  What has it been?  Usually the state. 

Where religious discrimination is not very acceptable these days; political discrimination is... shall we say, "Actively Encouraged"? 

We know where that leads.

Now that is an interesting thing about the Old Testament if you relegate the "God" issue to a secondary position.

Looking at the text through an ungodly lens, it is a book that is full of struggles via a compilation of different authors about how to construct a society rather than a State - constructing a State was left to the Greek philosophers such as Plato it would appear  :D

Starting with the basics and the covenants of Abraham and Moses, one proposes a society based upon friendship and kinship whilst the other proposes a society based upon obligation.  There is also 3 different legal codes written by different authors in Exodus, Deuteronomy and Leviticus.

Then there is the apparent disagreement between authors over the role of King David (and the Davidic line) via some kind of divine ordination whilst in Samuel, that divine ordination is thoroughly rejected.  Likewise there are two lines of thought over the priests - one a hierarchical elite and another a common call to the Kingdom of Priests (Israel).

In short there is plenty of moral dogma - often at odds with itself - but no political theories of how the State should evolve or be run.

None of the writers seem to be fans of the city life.  The first city and the first murderer (Cain) go hand in hand.  Babel and Sodom do not get rave reviews and as such, as some form of obscure political statement, it appears that city life perverts man to hunger for power, riches et al, whilst community and village life is somehow free from such temptations - at least that is what the numerous authors suggest on balance from the writing.

An early written inference that centralised power is going to corrupt perhaps?  That said, Saul is made King by the society and thus the "State" is necessarily born despite the misgivings listed throughout the Old Testament.   :D



Title: Re: Religion
Post by: fionnain on 17:53 20-Feb-2013
You got it wrong, fionnain  :D

I want to remove religion from this homepage!  :-*

A mere technicality Claus!!  :D
Title: Re: Religion
Post by: P-N on 18:07 20-Feb-2013
You got it wrong, fionnain  :D

I want to remove religion from this homepage!  :-*

You do have a valid point Claus.  This forum is international and the recent very noticeable move towards religion and all matters Biblical may (or may not) appear somewhat off-putting to Indian, Turkish, Chinese (and other) readers and potential members.  (I simply mention those nations as they are the ones that are taking a far greater interest in investment and entrepreneurship in Ukraine than most according to those who sit in the Ukrainian officialdom.)

Something to consider a little more seriously perhaps.

Title: Re: Thoughts on the news from the Vatican
Post by: fionnain on 18:21 20-Feb-2013
First we had "Separation of Church and State."  (See US Constitution; 1st Amendment)

Now we have a proposal of Separation of Chuch and Ex Pat Forum!!  (See Claus & P-N)

Let freedom ring!!!  8)
Title: Re: Thoughts on the news from the Vatican
Post by: Glyn Thomas. on 18:31 20-Feb-2013
I have stayed quiet recently but merely observed ... Generally I see trends in the forum that latch onto visas, marriage.. Cars ... Etc and generally they all relate to ukraine. Sometimes we get a quirk.. A month of bitching about Obama this or Obama that and i am tolerant.

I have no doubt the religious themes will soon fade.

If they don't then I will start to intervene because generally I want the forum to be tolerant, inclusive and not push any dogma or rhetoric that may offend others.

This is an expat forum that is aimed at expats in Ukraine.

All of you are non-paying guests and I will always do what is best to keep the spirit .. Excuse the pun.. Relevant to life here in Ukraine.

Play nicely.

Ace123
Owner
Title: Re: Thoughts on the news from the Vatican
Post by: P-N on 18:44 20-Feb-2013
First we had "Separation of Church and State."  (See US Constitution; 1st Amendment)

Now we have a proposal of Separation of Chuch and Ex Pat Forum!!  (See Claus & P-N)

Let freedom ring!!!  8)

Firstly, I did not fall on either side of the secular line you draw in what I wrote.  "Perhaps" and "consideration" are hardly words that form a definite opinion or outcome - unless you have a radically different definition of them to most.

Secondly, it is important to remember what this forum was created for many years ago and the interests of those it serves - the readers who are visiting and its members, about to move to, or who are already living in Ukraine and how to deal with the bureaucracy, social normative, corruption, expectations and disappointments. 

The latter was the most persuasive argument to remain a member of this forum for all the years I have.

That being the case, is it not right to ponder and consider reasonably, the recent and noticeable change in forum content and the impression it will give to potential members who are either atheist, agnostic or non-Christian?  A home page full of Biblical quotations I suspect will be off-putting to some and thus some will possibly lose out of the quite considerable experience of being a foreigner in Ukraine acquired by the forum over the years.

Title: Re: Thoughts on the news from the Vatican
Post by: kyivkpic on 21:27 20-Feb-2013
?People who want to share their religious views with you almost never want you to share yours with them.?

Dave Barry

Title: Re: Thoughts on the news from the Vatican
Post by: fionnain on 22:48 20-Feb-2013
First we had "Separation of Church and State."  (See US Constitution; 1st Amendment)

Now we have a proposal of Separation of Chuch and Ex Pat Forum!!  (See Claus & P-N)

Let freedom ring!!!  8)

Firstly, I did not fall on either side of the secular line you draw in what I wrote.  "Perhaps" and "consideration" are hardly words that form a definite opinion or outcome - unless you have a radically different definition of them to most.

Secondly, it is important to remember what this forum was created for many years ago and the interests of those it serves - the readers who are visiting and its members, about to move to, or who are already living in Ukraine and how to deal with the bureaucracy, social normative, corruption, expectations and disappointments. 

The latter was the most persuasive argument to remain a member of this forum for all the years I have.

That being the case, is it not right to ponder and consider reasonably, the recent and noticeable change in forum content and the impression it will give to potential members who are either atheist, agnostic or non-Christian?  A home page full of Biblical quotations I suspect will be off-putting to some and thus some will possibly lose out of the quite considerable experience of being a foreigner in Ukraine acquired by the forum over the years.

Isn't it ironic that we are quick to come to the defence of the atheist, agnostic, or non-christian, but when members were bashing Christian missionaries for weeks and me personally as a Christian, not a peep from anyone to defend Christians or me as a Christian. 

Is there a double standard here?  Ok to bash Christians, but Lord help the man that might in some slight way offend the Atheist by simply professing his faith. 

Free speech was soley intended to protect speech that another man finds offensive.  We either have free speech or we do not.  If you are going to tolerate the Chirstian Missionary bashers that have done a fair job of ad hominem Christian bashing, then you must then at least tolerate the Christian that quotes a Bible verse or two from time to time.

Sorry if the word of God offended you, but I am sure that you were also offended by the slurs, obscene language and other unseemly comments made by others here, but perhaps you were not? 

You are worried that Bible quotations might put some off, but you are not worried about the anti-missionary diatribes that ranted on and on for weeks? 

Hey, you have got to be kidding me!!! 

Perhaps you can attract more atheists and agnostics by telling them that missionaries are not welcome in Ukraine (according to some memebers here) and that making vile and disgusting ad hominem attacks on Christians (As already done here many times) are welcome.  This way you can attract all the atheists you can find. 

Soon, you can have a weekly feature where you can show the Muslims in Sudan murdering the Coptic Christians and then the next week you can feature the ruling Muslim Brotherhood burning Coptic Christian Churches in Egypt.  I am sure that the Atheists, agnostics and non Christians will flock to this site then.   
Title: Re: Thoughts on the news from the Vatican
Post by: P-N on 00:06 21-Feb-2013
Oh dear - you are missing the point both the owner of this website has made, and the issue to ponder I have raised almost simultaneously as per time line above - I presume deliberately.

I will defer to the owner as it is his website, his rules and his commercial interest.  Suffice to say if fee paying sponsors for the website and new members are deterred from being such due to anything written here then I expect he will be less than happy - regardless of the topic which alienates them. 

This is, when all is said and done, a business venture for him.

I am asking that we all remember what this forum is for and the global community it potentially serves.  No more and no less.  Regardless of belief, colour, race, creed, political affiliation or nationality etc., the hurdles Ukraine presents to any foreigner living and/or working here can be difficult to circumnavigate regardless of "who you know" within or without Ukraine.

Whilst this forum is not the only place to seek solutions to the problems encountered by foreigners in Ukraine (there are numerous forums and some quite excellent city/town specific ones if you speak Russian or Ukrainian) - and despite occasionally the solutions offered here may leave a lot to be desired - it is still a fairly good starting point. 

As such it needs, by its very nature, to be welcoming to all and sundry regardless of religion, nationality, colour or any other category humanity likes to segregate itself into.  Given the ever increasing numbers of Chinese, Indian and Turkish entrepreneurs in Ukraine, that necessarily includes Muslims, Hindus, Sheiks, Taoists, Buddhists et al - if the forum is to accomplish what it was created for and help the maximum amount of people it can then it falls on all members to consider this when they post.

To insure that remains the situation, there is then a responsibility placed on members to exercise the right to freedom of speech and expression with careful consideration for the wording they use to make their point - Something that is occasionally forgotten by some and reminders are therefore required.

It is fair to say that Ace123 has posted another reminder above.  I am quite sure that if he feels a need to cull some memberships to retain the atmosphere he wants the board to have, then that will undoubtedly occur sooner rather than later.

I would therefore appeal the all members to pay due care and attention to how they convey what they want to say lest they be banished - but also to remember first and foremost, what this forum is for - and that is not only surviving, but succeeding in Ukraine.
Title: Re: Thoughts on the news from the Vatican
Post by: fionnain on 13:00 21-Feb-2013
You may not have noticed P-N, but the ad just below your most recent post on this thread was placed by the CATHOLIC CHURCH.  As one of the sponsers of the site, I am sure that the Church is not offended by a bible verse, but I am sure they would be offended by the Christian Missionary bashing that has been tolerated here. 

The point that you missed is the double standard.  You did not want to read bible verses because you were concerned atheists might be offended, but you offered no such warning to those who quite liberally bashed Christians and missionaries.  If you are going to warn people not to post Bible verses, then specifically warn people not to post anti-Christian and anti-Christian Missionary comments. 

Your prior explanation failed to address the real issue of the double standard.  The was no warning to not bash Christians, but there sure was a warning not to post Bible verses. 
Title: Re: Thoughts on the news from the Vatican
Post by: Glyn Thomas. on 13:37 21-Feb-2013
I think that this debate has carried on enough.. way past the point of being useful to anyone... .so I am locking the topic.

Please note that generally I am prepared to take a very inclusive tolerant view to most issues but eventually my patience wears thin. Not on who is right or wrong but just with the pointlessness of the debate. This is not a virtual soapbox - its an Expat forum.

It's all very interesting to the poster perhaps, but what we want to talk about and read about here on this forum are three things:

1) UKRAINE

2) UKRAINE

3) UKRAINE

If anyone wants to slug it out about gun control in Kansas, religion, gay marriage or whether Elvis is still alive I suggest they PM each other.