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News and Views => European Politics => Topic started by: frank1010 on 19:48 13-Mar-2016

Title: Right wing parties unstoppable in europe?
Post by: frank1010 on 19:48 13-Mar-2016
I am really puzzled. After front national in France, PIS in Poland , fidesz in Hungary and some other examples we now see the rising of afd in germany which have won double digit support ... what is happening to europe? Frightening in my opinion.
Title: Re: Right wing parties unstoppable in europe?
Post by: David Rochlin on 21:05 13-Mar-2016
There are economic forces at work, automation, globalization and the gradual, inexorable loss of jobs for which moderate political parties have failed to resolve.  People are desperate enough to grasp at bad solutions in the absence of good ones. 
  The other issue is the "One Europe" project which sounded like a celebration of cultures, but is equally a destruction of cultures.
Title: Re: Right wing parties unstoppable in europe?
Post by: frank1010 on 22:03 13-Mar-2016
There are economic forces at work, automation, globalization and the gradual, inexorable loss of jobs for which moderate political parties have failed to resolve.  People are desperate enough to grasp at bad solutions in the absence of good ones. 
  The other issue is the "One Europe" project which sounded like a celebration of cultures, but is equally a destruction of cultures.

David, people (voters) seem to be blindfolded by disregarding all the advantages which EU brought to all of us. One currency, free trade, no borders and so many other things which in my opinion outweigh all the undeniable flaws. Loss of jobs in notorious countries like Greece, Spain, Portugal and other weak countries are not a result of EU but of wrongs and misguided politics (and politicians) in such countries. But obviously the herd of sheep aka voters are just guided by imaginative fears raised and used by the ultra nationalists ... Donald Dumb is next on the list .... we all know there are far more nazis in the USA than in Ukraine ... the world is slowly falling apart and the peaceful aera comes to an end.
Title: Re: Right wing parties unstoppable in europe?
Post by: David Rochlin on 00:55 14-Mar-2016
Even with better politics and politicians in Greece, or Italy or Spain, those countries will not be as productive as Germany and will never compete with Germany as manufacturing. It will not happen in a thousand years, because the people and cultures are different in a way that forecloses the possibility.  One currency and trading block is a great idea, but all the Euros end up in Germany.  Without some gimmick they always will.
   That German women are less safe walking about, drunk at night, in some cities is not their imagination.  Immigrants are really preying on them. 
Title: Re: Right wing parties unstoppable in europe?
Post by: frank1010 on 06:26 14-Mar-2016
To your first conclusion i agree which led to Germany being the biggest payer for EU and the biggest contributor for the rescue shield spanned to support the ultra weak southern european countries. This immigrant problem is however widely overestimated and blown up out of proportion by the right wing parties in order to create an atmosphere of fear. Same has also been used by the russian propagana and the greatest liar on earth (lawrow) in an attempt to (ab)use the russian community in germany to destabilize the country. I personally do not want a reintroduction of nazi paroles like germany the germans or arbeit macht frei ... people have a short memory, in germany like in Russia or in the US of A.
Title: Re: Right wing parties unstoppable in europe?
Post by: cc3 on 09:17 14-Mar-2016
Boris Johnson's argument on "Brexit", and thus, indirectly on the creeping moslem invasion of Europe:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/eureferendum/12192893/Americans-would-never-accept-EU-restrictions-so-why-should-we.html (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/eureferendum/12192893/Americans-would-never-accept-EU-restrictions-so-why-should-we.html)
Title: Re: Right wing parties unstoppable in europe?
Post by: kyivkpic on 09:20 14-Mar-2016
To your first conclusion i agree which led to Germany being the biggest payer for EU and the biggest contributor for the rescue shield spanned to support the ultra weak southern european countries. This immigrant problem is however widely overestimated and blown up out of proportion by the right wing parties in order to create an atmosphere of fear. Same has also been used by the russian propagana and the greatest liar on earth (lawrow) in an attempt to (ab)use the russian community in germany to destabilize the country. I personally do not want a reintroduction of nazi paroles like germany the germans or arbeit macht frei ... people have a short memory, in germany like in Russia or in the US of A.

Russia is spending money and energy to exacerbate the immigration problems. They also fund the far right wing parties. Problems and schisms in Europe are to Russia's advantage.

I'm not worried about fascism in Europe. It already exists in Russia.
Title: Re: Right wing parties unstoppable in europe?
Post by: frank1010 on 10:52 14-Mar-2016
Boris Johnson's argument on "Brexit", and thus, indirectly on the creeping moslem invasion of Europe:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/eureferendum/12192893/Americans-would-never-accept-EU-restrictions-so-why-should-we.html (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/eureferendum/12192893/Americans-would-never-accept-EU-restrictions-so-why-should-we.html)

Who the heck is Boris Johnson ... The UK already have a very special position within the EU and kept their own currency. All the arguments pro BREXIT are pure populism and creating fears among the people in order to distort or influence public opinion pro BREXIT. If UK voters think that BREXIT may lead to a better England and prevent any of the horror scenarios painted in vivid colors by BREXIT supporters, so may it be. We will see what happens then. EU can survive without England. But can England survive without EU? The result will be back to small small and regionalism and growing conflicts. England is the closest ally of the US jumping on the bandwaggon immediately when big brother is calling (like the Irak war which we all know was based on fictious and fake facts). If England wants to have some kind of independence maybe England should be a bit more critical when some ally calls for war?

England has a huge muslim community resulting from immigration from its former commonwealth or occupied states like Pakistan, India, and so on. Hence maybe England should start throwing out all muslim (or other) immigrants?
Title: Re: Right wing parties unstoppable in europe?
Post by: cc3 on 12:29 14-Mar-2016
Boris Johnson's succinctly stated "profound difference" between the potential and practicality of the US and the Eu as unified polities (from my previously provided link...in case you did not read it to its final paragraph):

"There is a profound difference between the US and the EU, and one that will never disappear. The US has a single culture, a single language, a single and powerful global brand, and a single government that commands national allegiance. It has a national history, a national myth, a demos that is the foundation of their democracy. The EU has nothing of the kind. In urging us to embed ourselves more deeply in the EU?s federalising structures, the Americans are urging us down a course they would never dream of going themselves. That is because they are a nation conceived in liberty. They sometimes seem to forget that we are quite fond of liberty, too."
Title: Re: Right wing parties unstoppable in europe?
Post by: frank1010 on 11:29 07-Apr-2016
Boris Johnson's succinctly stated "profound difference" between the potential and practicality of the US and the Eu as unified polities (from my previously provided link...in case you did not read it to its final paragraph):

"There is a profound difference between the US and the EU, and one that will never disappear. The US has a single culture, a single language, a single and powerful global brand, and a single government that commands national allegiance. It has a national history, a national myth, a demos that is the foundation of their democracy. The EU has nothing of the kind. In urging us to embed ourselves more deeply in the EU?s federalising structures, the Americans are urging us down a course they would never dream of going themselves. That is because they are a nation conceived in liberty. They sometimes seem to forget that we are quite fond of liberty, too."

Maybe there are profound diferences between the countries but that is not a fault of the EU. Much of the EUs problems stem from national egoism and wrongdoing in some of its member states. And much of this anti EU movement is just abusing the moment by certain populists who try to mobilise people by fake and wrong informations. Like this clown Boris Johnson ... http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/mar/23/very-interesting-boris-johnson-brexit-treasury-select-committee (http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/mar/23/very-interesting-boris-johnson-brexit-treasury-select-committee)
Title: Re: Right wing parties unstoppable in europe?
Post by: David Rochlin on 14:37 07-Apr-2016
There are profound differences in cultures of Europe that influence productivity savings, borrowing.  Even if all the leaders of EU countries were effective or honest, instead of representative of their peoples and constituencies, all the Euros would still flow toward Germany and something has to be done about that to make the Euro work as a currency.  Maybe that is slightly off topic, though.
Title: Re: Right wing parties unstoppable in europe?
Post by: frank1010 on 15:01 07-Apr-2016
Hi David, such a situation will always exist any- and everywhere. Even in the US of A you have economically stronger and weaker states. Even stronger and weaker cities (Detroit is bancrupt for example and the state does not provide bailout). The same in Gemany, we have strong States like Bavaria, Hessen, etc and weak states like Saarland, some of our new territories, etc. This is natural competition and the better wins. And there is some kind of transfer mechanism. In Germany we have a wealth transfer were according to a complicated key the stronger states support the weaker. The same in the EU. You have countries which are payers and countries which are receivers ... This is the system. And your opinion is that the system must change? How? Reinvent communism?
P
UK despite its special status benefits a lot and also pays. That is the deal. And all these stupid allegations from people like Thomson about overregulation and that UK will gain its freedom when leaving EU is frankly speaking bullpoop. He can't even prove his rubbish like all the other Anti EU fans.

So yes Europe and the EU is different than the US and of course every nation or people are free to decide where their country or state should be heading. But should the direction be given by populists using fake arguments and lies in order to deceive people? People like Geert Wilders, Marine Le Pen, Frauke Petry (who proposed to use weapons against immigrants/refugees), Orban, Thomson, Kaczynski and alike? If that is the case than you also accept that the vote being held in crimea was a free, valid and acceptable vote ....?

I don't want to be governed by these people, nor by the Kremlin-based midget or any other weirdo.

The Euro would work if we had more responsible politicians and leaders in europe. The Euro should not fail because of different productivity levels within its member states. If that was the case then we would be returning to the medieval times with its mickey mouse states, borders, taxes, visa regulations ... And Ukrainian people will not get their visa free travel to EU. Is that what you want?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kleinstaaterei

Title: Re: Right wing parties unstoppable in europe?
Post by: SteveH on 10:27 08-Apr-2016
Frank - Brexit
http://uk.businessinsider.com/reasons-why-uk-leaving-the-eu-brexit-is-a-good-idea-2015-10 (http://uk.businessinsider.com/reasons-why-uk-leaving-the-eu-brexit-is-a-good-idea-2015-10)

German manufacturing is a booming behemoth, while almost every other nation bar Greece is at some sort of low.
Britain's manufacturing sector is not he same as it was back in 1950s, and we now depend a lot on imports and exports.
Immigration
Britain has given away control of immigration within the EU to the EU, and retains the power only to control non-EU immigration.
This has led to huge disparities where Commonwealth citizens with family in Britain struggle to obtain visas whilst EU citizens with little link with the UK can automatically work here
Trade
Britain pays direct ?membership? costs of ?17.4bn, which equate to an annual net contribution of ?6.7bn and dramatically rising owing to Tony Blair?s surrender of a sizeable part of the British rebate.
The UK Government has a 1 1/2 Trillion GBP Sterling borrowing Debt,
The UK Government has Given away 11 Billion GBP Sterling in Foreign aid every year, for the past 3 Years
Title: Re: Right wing parties unstoppable in europe?
Post by: frank1010 on 11:39 08-Apr-2016
Hi Steve,

A booming "behemoth"? Hence it is germanys fault that german goods are in high demand elsewhere? And because germany is an economically strong country EU needs to be slashed? You rightly said that UK has changed. Due to EU or due to whom? And If UK largely depends on im- and exports as you say can you tell us where the majority of UK exports go?

With regards to immigration
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modern_immigration_to_the_United_Kingdom (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modern_immigration_to_the_United_Kingdom) I dont see where the problem is. There is much more immigrants and asylum seekers in Germany than in the UK. And in former times the UK has seen greater numbers of immigrants coming from comonwealth states. Was that a reason to slash the commonwealth?

Yes england has a borrowing debt. Due to EU? England decides where to spend money and what for and why to borrow money. How much has England spend for its involvement in the Iraq/Afghanistan war?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Financial_cost_of_the_Iraq_War#U.K._war_costs (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Financial_cost_of_the_Iraq_War#U.K._war_costs)

With regards to Englands contribution to EU ...
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/eureferendum/12176663/EU-Facts-how-much-does-Britain-pay-to-the-EU-budget.html (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/eureferendum/12176663/EU-Facts-how-much-does-Britain-pay-to-the-EU-budget.html) there is always a price to pay in order to become member of a club. Likewise every individual the England pays to be a member of some social security system. Some more and some less depending on the individual income. Since people are paying for the social security network would it be the right attitude to say that the social security system in England should be slashed?

So the BREXIT fans are propagating that England should not contribute anything to EU any more but will continue to benefit from EU? Don't you think that is unlikely? For example any goods imported into EU from outside EU are subject to customs taxes (average 5.5% on goods and 14% on agricultural products). If England will not be part of EU any more then it is more than likely that British goods will be subject to customs taxes .... and if England wants to exit EU why not allow Scotland to become independant? And crimea and Donbas and Catalonia and the basque area and and and ...

If being a member of EU is so bad for England (which by the way has a special position in this union anyway) then I would let England go with pleasure.But I would not allow England to continue taking any benefits from EU. By the way more than half of English goods go to the EU and more than 1/3 of its services (financial services for example) are provided to EU member states.
Title: Re: Right wing parties unstoppable in europe?
Post by: SteveH on 13:54 08-Apr-2016
Frank it is Not about England, its about The United Kingdom, it is in itself a country that is made up of England, Scotland Wales and Northern Ireland.
It's official name is "United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland".
The UK pays more into the EU budget than it gets back, 8.5 Billion GBP Sterling per Annum to be a Member, 23 Million GBP Sterling per day.
In 2015 the UK government paid ?13 billion to the EU budget, and EU spending on the UK was ?4.5 billion.
So the UK?s ?net contribution? was estimated at about ?8.5 billion.
Each year the UK gets an instant discount on its contributions to the EU?the ?rebate??worth almost ?5 billion last year.
Without it the UK would have been liable for ?18 billion in contributions.
Do You really think the EU would Not trade with The UK if we were Not a Member?,
We import More than we Export, in fact we have imported more in the past 12 Months than any other Year since the End of W.War 2.

What did The UK Export, well a lot of the Following Top 20 are Not owned by UK Countries or Conglomerates, Tata, Nissan, Beyer, Roche,
Below are the 20 highest value export products shipped from the UK during 2015.
Shown within brackets is the 4-digit harmonized tariff system code for each item.
1.Cars: US$38,762,583,000 (HTS code 8703)
2.Gold (unwrought): $38,413,336,000 (7108)
3.Medication mixes in dosage: $24,171,411,000 (3004)
4.Turbo-jets: $19,288,236,000 (8411)
5.Crude oil: $16,117,874,000 (2709)
6.Aircraft parts: $14,838,019,000 (8803)
7.Processed petroleum oils: $11,242,614,000 (2710)
8.Blood fractions (including antisera): $9,499,515,000 (3002)
9.Alcohol (including spirits, liqueurs): $7,458,891,000 (2208)
10.Automobile parts/accessories: $6,289,823,000 (8708)
11.Jewelry: $5,174,504,000 (7113)
12.Phone system devices: $4,847,275,000 (8517)
13.Miscellaneous heterocyclics: $4,792,304,000 (2934)
14.Hand-drawn paintings, drawings: $4,667,449,000 (9701)
15.Platinum (unwrought): $4,455,232,000 (7110)
16.Petroleum gases: $4,435,644,000 (2711)
17.Computers, optical readers: $4,165,078,000 (8471)
18.Aircraft, spacecraft: $3,725,083,000 (8802)
19.Taps, valves, similar appliances: $3,323,462,000 (8481)
20.Engines (diesel): $3,239,527,000 (8408)

Title: Re: Right wing parties unstoppable in europe?
Post by: frank1010 on 16:45 08-Apr-2016
Germany also pays more than what its getting back ... Certainly EU would still trade with UK but on a different level. UK products will get more expensive due to customs taxes. In case of a BREXIT UK will no longer be part of the EU market and will no longer benefit from tax exemptions. You cannot decide to leave a union and still wanting to benefit from it. The same if you decide not to be part of your countries social system but continue to take the benefits ...

You'd better take a close look at who wants to convince the people about demolishing EU. It is done by extremists of different political color. Mostly right wing. Demolition of EU is what the Kremlin-based midget wants and if that happens he has succeeded. Because then there will be no force to stop him.

Ultimately we should all try to improve and reform if necessary. Demolishing EU is not an improvement at all. That is just pure egoism of some demagogues. If the people of Great Britain think that leaving EU will lead to reforms then so may it be. We will see what happens then. I predict it is very risky. But travellers should no be stopped.

EU has many flaws but also many advantages. I remember the times when there was borders and plenty of different currencies ... In a Union the stronger help the weaker that is the principle of every modern society. However some demagogues are teaching the people to be more egoistic and to slash this union. And not to help its neighbors (like Ukraine). Is that what you want? Kill the union and back to mickey mouse states? No more solidarity? If people get killed on our front door ... who cares?
Title: Re: Right wing parties unstoppable in europe?
Post by: David Rochlin on 20:35 08-Apr-2016
Trade was the practical reason for the EU, but ending centuries of war was the dream of One Europe.  But, Western Europeans no longer believe that war could happen between their own countries, even without the EU... or NATO.
Title: Re: Right wing parties unstoppable in europe?
Post by: frank1010 on 13:50 09-Apr-2016
http://www.online-translator.com/siteTranslation/autolink/?direction=ge&template=General&sourceURL=http://www.sueddeutsche.de/wirtschaft/grossbritannien-und-die-eu-brexit-dann-geht-doch-1.2940619 (http://www.online-translator.com/siteTranslation/autolink/?direction=ge&template=General&sourceURL=http://www.sueddeutsche.de/wirtschaft/grossbritannien-und-die-eu-brexit-dann-geht-doch-1.2940619)
Title: Re: Right wing parties unstoppable in europe?
Post by: frank1010 on 04:22 10-Apr-2016
What just came into my mind ...

Let the british people decide to listen to right wing nationalists like Farage and his UKIP. Let the UK quit the EU and quit solidarity.  What next? Let the French listen to Marine Le Pen and let France exit the EU and solidarity. Let Polish decide to exit because this is what Kaczinsky wants. Lets listen to Geert Wilders and let the Dutch people quit. The next in line would be Orban in Hungary. Let Greece collapse. Let Portugal and Spain collapse because there will be no more solidarity. And so on. What would be the effect? The game of Domino?

If one country is allowed to exit dont you think it will encourage the others who are just waiting for the occasion? What would happen if the EU falls apart. If Greece or Spain fail? The british financial industry is one of the biggest in europe and has excessively borrowed money to other countries and other banks. That is their business. Now if lenders cant pay back any more. What would happen to the british financial industry? Whilst we are on the move demolishing the union lets continue and dump Ukraine as there would be nobody left to support this country if nationalism and egoism prevails elsewhere. Ukraine will be taken over by Russia in no time and the Kremlin-based midget will be very happy. Of course the expats and their wives have nothing to fear as they can simply escape to their motherland. But what if there will suddenly be millions of refugees from Ukraine knocking on Polands door (because of russian agression)?

A union of any kind costs money and some kind of independence. That is in the nature of a union and solidarity. So lets slash this union because there is a price to pay. What next? What is the plan of Nigel Farage, Marine Le Pen, Frauke Petry Kaczinsky and other demagogues? What is their proposed plan for the future of us? Close the borders, refuse refugees from war stricken countries. If need be with gun force. Can you imagine what happens when we see the first images of mothers with children being shot dead because they want to enter the union and seek asylum? From tear gar to gun shots is is just a small step ... Or will they be allowed in? How can we effectively close borders to refugees? Reality says its impossible.

And when it is so easy to slash a union and solidarity, why not slash the british, french and other social security systems because any security system, any solidarity, any union has a price to pay ...

Where will we end up? If Europe is shattererd? If britain decides to leave the Union? It is quite easy to decide over this and to listen to such demagogues. And allow manipulated referendums. In the land of cheese (Netherlands) just like in crimea ... It takes much effort to build such a union and it is an ongoing process to improve and further develop. But it does not take much to fail. And for sure it is a game of domino because countries and banks are so much interwoven these days. The Lehman disaster stands as proof.

I say we should do everything to save and improve this precious plant called European Union rather than listening to demagogues who have no expertise and no plan for our future.